Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 43:50 to 1:45:45
The inquiry focuses on public holiday swap policies and the detailed setup and travel costs for the Australian pavilion at COP30.
Topics: Workplace relations, Travel and event costs, Public service staffing
Speakers: Hon Sarah Henderson, David Higgins, Susan McDonald, Mike Kaiser, Dean Smith, Hon Murray Watt, Kushla Munro, Luise McCulloch, Tim Spackman, Varun Ghosh
Anderson. Um, good morning, Mr. Kaiser. I've just got a couple of questions for you around the department's EBA. You'll be able to assist me with that.
>> I'm hoping someone can, Senator.
Senator, I'm sorry I missed your
>> EBA.
>> The EBA, >> the enterprise >> enterprise bargaining agreement.
>> Yes, that would be my group.
>> Terrific. Thank you. Uh specifically, I want to ask you some questions around public holidays, treatment of gazetted public holidays. Um you would have seen some um newspaper coverage of that earlier this year. Well, it's actually not um Minister, but thank you for trying to anticipate where I might be going. I appreciate that. Um I wanted to ask about the specifics of uh what employees are able to do. Is there a limitation to how many days they can swap of the I think nine and a half public holidays that are gazetted uh in Australia or um is there any requirements around religious or cultural reasons? Could you give me some detail please?
>> Uh so Senator um I may have to take the detail of your question on notice. Is there a limit? But in general, our policy is that um staff can arrange with their managers if they want to uh swap out a public holiday for another day and actually work on that holiday.
>> So, thank you. I would specifically like to know if there's any requirements. Do they have to demonstrate a reason in writing? Can it be personal? You know, I just feel like having a different day off. uh or does do they have to demonstrate a cultural or religious reason to be wanting to swap the day?
>> Senator uh Tim Spackman, chief people officer. Uh it is normally, as Miss McCullik said, an arrangement between the manager and the staff member. Uh I will take on notice the specifics of the enterprise agreement about if there is actually a threshold for approval. uh but we do uh have colleagues within the department that uh will elect to work on a public holiday and swap it for another day but I will take the specifics on notice if I could and come back to you as soon as I can.
>> What sort of arrangements then does does the department have to supervise uh or task staff who choose to work on a day when the rest of Australia is not
working? Senator, it would be very similar to any other work arrangements, which is why the arrangement with the manager is so important in this instance. If we look at uh my division, I have had uh staff members uh that have elected to work on public holidays. It is an arrangement that I make with them openly and transparently before that public holiday. Uh and no different than working remotely in any other instance.
How uh can you just talk me through um Anzac Day is the next public holiday that's coming up. Um it's gazetted to commemorate those lives lost or damaged um through defending Australia uh or being engaged in conflicts. How is it okay that you can how do you demonstrate that you are choosing to not mark that day? You're just going to have another day off instead.
Uh Senator, once again I I would need to go back to the specifics of the enterprise agreement, but what I would say is that generally uh the arrangement would be made between the manager and the individual rather than a judgment on whether uh it's okay or not uh for that specific day. Uh that's not something I would generally recommend people getting into. It's a very personal choice. People have different reasons for doing different things. If the enterprise agreement and our policies and procedures allow it, we would then facilitate it as best we
>> So Australia, the Australian government has seen fit to commemorate this day to give people a day off for employers to pay for people to have that day off in order to go and mark that day. Uh but you're saying that the department has no view on that and um despite it being a gazette day. Uh we'll just allow people swap it out and do something else instead.
>> Um Senator, flexibility uh has always been an important part of our workforce to attracting uh quality staff and retaining them. So we we we wouldn't make a judgment call on that. If the enterprise agreement allows that uh facility to occur, we we would then allow that staff member to do that.
>> I'm I'm I struggle with this. I think that you know, Anzac Day is a such a significant day and to for all the people in the room who do go and observe the day with their community. I'm I'm really struggling unless you're a doctor or emergency service worker or somebody who has a critical need to be at work why this would even be something that has been um developed as a policy. I think it's quite extraordinary. That's a statement not a question. I I'm really struggling with this. Um, I want to ask you then on uh specifically on notice if you could provide that portion of the EBA. I'd like to know from a policy setting what uh elements need to be considered by the manager. Does there need to be a reason given? Does it need to be religious or a significant cultural reason uh in order to swap out those days? Is there any restriction on how you do that? Could you roll up the nine and a half public holidays of the year, elect to work those um and uh uh have put all of those into a twoe break uh some other part of the year? Um and I would also like to understand what protocols are in place for directing work on those days. I'm assuming the phone's not ringing a lot on um on Anzac Day or Australia Day to the minister's point, Christmas Day. So, how how is this a good use of Australia's expectations of how the department manages staff?
>> Andrew, if I may, um, we're a very geographically dispersed organization and we have staff right across Australia. We also have a lot of operational staff um who have to work on public holidays um and invariably we will have staff working in one state and not another state. So individual flexibility for our staff is a priority including where they work from. It's part of our employment strategy and giving them an opportunity to engage with their uh manager um in an arrangement of trust uh where they work for us and we provide the due respect to them is part of our employment arrangement.
>> I understand bank holidays and certainly [clears throat] CRA seems to have public holidays very frequently. Uh but Anzac
>> and Senator, you're you're making assumptions there about what our staff may or may not do on Anzac Day, which we're not in a position to um verify.
>> I don't know what point you're making
>> Well, Senator, you're you're making in your the premise of your question is that a large number of our staff will choose to work on Anzac Day. What I'm saying is a large number of our staff will be working on Anzac Day because we are an operationally based organization.
Uh all right then. Uh could you specifically provide uh on notice how many people have elected to swap each of the public holidays if you could identify them by public holiday across the department uh since the EBA was introduced.
>> And Senator I can answer that question now. We don't keep a central record of arrangements reached between our individual staff and their managers. So we would not be able to answer that
question. So there is no record across the department of how where people are working on different days. you the HR doesn't keep any
>> Senator Senator we're an organization of about 5,000 people >> distributed um from the Antarctica to you know to the islands of of the nation uh we operate on the basis of devolving managerial responsibility to managers that's part of their responsibility it's part of what they're paid for in a large and complex and geographically dispersed organization we have no other choice but to manage that And so the individual arrangements that occur between a manager and a staff member is not something that we obsessively seek to keep central records on. In the same way as we don't seek to keep central records on who in Antarctica may be required to work on Anzac Day. That's a that is the responsibility of a manager in this organization as you would expect it to
be. >> I'm I think any organization would seek to keep thorough records particularly around human resource arrangements. I'd
be surprised if any private sector organization of our size holds central records about the decisions made by individual managers and their staff. Uh we're, you know, we're we have a large operational workforce as has been described. We also have a large policy workforce and in terms of the policy work of the department, it doesn't really matter whether that occurs on a public holiday or some other day. So, we leave those decisions devolved to managers in the department. That's what
they're paid for. So you don't see any problem with people choosing not to commemorate Anzac Day?
>> I don't make a judgment about that, Senator. If it's allowed for in the EBA, I have an obligation to uphold the provisions of the EBA. I didn't strike the EBA. The EBA is is the basic organizational document that manages our relationship with our staff. It's a feature of the EBA. It's available to our staff and our managers are expected to do their job in a devolved way across a large and complex and geographically dispersed organization. >> All right. And private sector size would be the same.
>> Senator, it's been drawn to my attention that Anzac Day is a Saturday this year. So I dare say there won't be that many people in Q or other departments working
on Anzac Day. Well, isn't it a pity that the fact that it's a weekend is the is the only bit that you're drawing from that because I can tell you in Townsville all of Townsville will be out on the Strand or you know
>> well I'll be at an Anzac Day ceremony with thousands of people on the go coast
and I >> Why is it that the department has so little care about what is a nationally significant day where we commemorate the people who've gone before us who have died whose families have been
>> accept that characterization Senator any fact
>> I think people who are watching Mr. Kaiser, the fact that no records are kept.
>> Oh, sorry. Okay.
>> Before before we get too far before we
before we get too far down this road, um let's let's retain the focus on asking
Senator Senator today
>> Senator Hanson Young Senator McDonald has the call. Let's keep this in the manner we usually do, which is questions to officials and answers to officials. Senator McDonald.
>> Thank you. So, there is no records kept by the department. There is no um notice kept of whether or not people work um on Anzac Day or swap it. I've asked on notice whether or not the department has any sort of policy. >> I'm sorry. May I just finish and then the the department will provide on notice whether or not there's policies around what requirements are for the department to uh employees to make these swaps and um and we'll and also the number of staff who are availing themselves of these changes.
>> Senator, we'll take it on notice.
>> Thanks, Chair. Just picking up on that question that Senator McDonald was
no central record kept by the
>> No, Senator would not because I'm not sure that individual managers keep obsessive records about staff um arrangements. It's pretty easy for a manager of say half a dozen people within the department to come to these arrangements with their staff without keeping records.
seeking another day in lie, that may well or perhaps working through public holidays that may well have consequences for their remuneration. Isn't that the case?
>> Well, no, because they will come to an arrangement with their manager to work another day.
>> So, so that always happens. It's a direct swap out. There's no other there's no remuneration consequences when
>> that's correct, Senator. There's no there's no renumeration changes if people elect to work on that public holiday. If I could just point uh to one point of clarification. Uh we we do have very detailed records when people take leave. They have to apply for leave in the system and it has to be approved by their manager. That is not the case with public holidays though. They are not a uh a day in which you have to enter enter in a request to take a public holiday. It's just expected.
>> And what about days off in L?
>> Days off in L is managed uh directly with their manager as is flex as well.
>> And no records of those days off in L.
that is a uh a direct relationship and an arrangement with the manager who would manage their performance and hours.
>> But Mr. Because I I guess I mean just say for instance and this is
>> I cannot believe you people are pursuing >> I cannot believe I I constantly >> So, Minister, I was in the middle of asking a question and I'd ask you to
Senators, Senators and Minister, Senators, Senators and Minister, um there's a question and answer going on. Minister, you will have an opportunity to provide um comments uh or a further elaboration on the answer once the official is done answering. Senator Hanson,
>> Mr. If you could on notice um come back to us with um any further information in relation to what records are kept that might be able to be extracted.
>> Answer the question. It's not kept centrally because the government has some other things to do rather than obsessively compile 5 and a half thousand people's records about whether they reach an agreement with their boss about working on a public holiday. We're we're actually thinking about delivering renewable energy about protecting the environment. [clears throat] Sorry, Senator Henderson. Let the minister finish now. He is addressing
the substance of it.
>> It's pathetic.
>> Mr. Kaiser, if you could do that, that able. I want to move to COP 30 costs. So you provided at the last estimates in December that you had a budget of $1.6 million for the departmental delegation to attend COP 30. In questions on notice, you indicated that the final travel travel costs for COP 30 now are being fully reconciled and can you provide a breakdown of airfares accommodation and associated travel costs and the final list of departmental staff attending by way of level or band.
>> I'm sure my colleagues have information for you Senator.
>> Yes. So thank you uh Senator. So the the costs of travel for 37 DQ officials to COP 30 uh was actually lower than the estimated amount uh at $1.54 million. Um so this comprise flight costs of $78700,414 meals and incidentals of $68,289 ground transport of $34,76 uh and other expenses including uh things like visas uh of $34,264,000 and accommodation costs of $615,026.
>> And so, uh, thank you very much for that. Um, do you have any other details in relation to the band level of of each staff member who attended? Could you just provide us with that detail?
uh on the band level I don't actually have that uh broken down but um there were approximately well sorry there were um four SCES officers uh that attended and yeah I I have to just take that detail in terms of what's the level
>> okay maybe you could come back to us on
>> one one thing I can say Senator is that Minister Bowen's delegation was the same size as former former Prime Minister Morrison's delegation to COP 26. Uh but Minister Price Minister Morrison's delegation included 13 political staffers, which was not the case uh under Miss uh Minister Bowen.
>> You you actually preempted my question. I was going to ask minister how many um staff attended from the minister's office.
>> Fewer than 13, but I'm sure we can get
>> seeking a precise answer if that's
>> Yeah. So uh for Minister Bowen's office, there were two advisers. um
>> Please don't interrupt the additional minister.
>> And uh the assistant minister uh minister Wilson also attended uh the the cop and he was accompanied by one
>> Okay. So no other ministerial staff. Okay. Thank you.
>> Not another 10 to make it 13.
could you ask to allow the officials just to address the questions for them please?
>> Well, Senator Henderson, the official had finished the answer and the minister was adding as he's entitled.
>> Well, he was just making snide comments and so that's not being very helpful when >> characterization ultimately the minister >> limited and you've asked me to be have some very important question snide comments from Minister Watts not uh not the first time.
>> Well, Senator Henderson, please again as we've discussed earlier, please don't talk over the top of me while I'm speaking. No, you were and then
I waited for it. I waited for
>> But in a table, what have you been? >> While I will while I will bring the minister to order when he is interrupting you or an official, he is entitled to give an answer and the official had finished then and the minister was adding to that answer. So there was nothing wrong with that.
>> So um the answer the minister gave was not an answer. Um but thank you very much Miss Monroe. I do appreciate your cooperation. Can I ask for the details of the cost for the Australian pavilion and if any other departments or agencies provided funding towards the pavilion
>> Uh Senator Henderson, uh the Australian Pavilion uh and the delegation office um for COP 30. Uh the total costs comprised $1.68 million. Um the uh the pavilion itself um uh cost 1.343 million um of that 1.68.
>> So 1.343 So 1.68 million for the pavilion costs.
>> No 1.68 um was the cost of the delegation office and the pavilion of of that 1.68 68 1.343 um was the cost of the the pavilion.
>> Well, can you give me a breakdown of those costs?
>> Uh as in
>> as as in that is that the charge to the government for setting up a pavilion?
>> Correct. Um and and the costs um relative to the cost of pavilions at previous COPs was significantly higher. Um, for example, the costs for our pavilion at COP 29 um totaled um $820 uh,000, $719.88. Uh, the costs at COP 28 were $831,000. Uh, and the costs at COP 27 were 971. The costs at uh at Glasgow, COP 26 were $1,75,000. Uh so the so the bellm costs for the cop were were significantly higher
>> and what's the reason for that significant jump in costs and they are costs imposed by
>> That's exactly right. Um and consistent with costs across the board for the COP in Belm. They were they were significantly higher. The Brazilian government recognized and has said publicly that there were market failures that that drove those those costs um both inside and outside the COP venue. But they were uh they were very high.
>> Uh did you uh receive any contribution from any other department or agency
>> uh for the pavilion?
>> Yes.
>> No. No, we did not.
>> They're solely incurred and paid for by your department.
>> Correct.
>> Can you give me a breakdown um as to how that is there any other breakdown of those costs? >> or is it just that you just received a bill 1.343 million just to set up? I
don't have further stand >> I don't have further detail um with respect to the breakdown but um I can take on notice and see whether we have a more disagregated set of of numbers if that's helpful to you. Senator,
>> did you seek to reduce those costs by reason of the significant increase?
>> Absolutely. Um as is the case at at every COP, we negotiate with um with the organizers to to try and manage those costs as as best we can. And the size of our pavilion at the COP in BM was the same size as it was at previous COPs. We do not seek a larger pavilion and and consequently um as we compare sort of relativities between conferences, this was this was materially higher. Uh can
we also receive the details of the cost of the 81 stakeholder events at the Australian pavilion >> and any other events and roundts um held at the Australian delegation offices. I believe there were 91 events in total >> and also details of who hosted each event and how many people attended each
event. Uh, I can take that on notice, Senator, but I just note that the that there were not significant costs occurred with with putting on those events. For for some, there'd be modest um provision of of coffee and tea and and the like, but in the main the costs are are absorbed um in the in the costs of of offering the pavilion. So, we we procure the space and then the space is serves to to to provide the backdrop for for the events. So there's there's not there are not significant costs that flow, but I but I can certainly take on notice that if you wish.
>> Were there any events sponsored by other departments or external bodies or or businesses and and if so was there any sponsorships involved?
>> So so the the pavilion program serves as a backdrop for a range of events that are that are um uh put forward by a range of organizations. Um I can take on notice that and provide the detail of the the program of those events but in terms of sponsorship no um we we covered the costs associated with the provision of the pavilion and the events therein.
>> Uh so were any other events sponsored by any external bodies or agencies or
>> No, not uh not as far as I'm aware. Um by sponsorship you you mean the provision of of financial
>> or maybe they were promoted please join us for this event.
>> C certainly there was absolutely um promotion of of a variety of events at the pavilion and that's the
>> no no promoted meaning the sponsor of the event was promoted as well.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. And and that's that's the the normal case of events at our pavilion and all the other pavilions. It's um as you can imagine it's a very large uh event with thousands of participants and um and and the the organizers of various events um actively promote their individual events to en encourage participation.
>> We had sorry if we could have those details on notice please and who is sponsoring the events.
>> Yeah absolutely.
>> In relation to um travel costs were there any travel costs of third parties paid by the department?
Uh so uh uh in short the answer to that is is yes. We provide a a travel grants uh program senator um which is designed to support the participation of underrepresented Australian stakeholders at at the COP. Um and at uh uh at COP 30 um the the total uh funding for that grants program was $395,612. Um uh and and the the the grants ranged from a minimum of $15,000 to a maximum of $20,000 per grant application. Um uh I can give you a breakdown should you wish of the of the um of the organizations that we supported through that program.
>> Uh yes please. And is that a competitive tender to obtain those grants?
>> Yeah. Uh organizations apply and we have a we have an internal process to make determinations as to as to um who's successful.
>> And how many grants were awarded? and did you did they include any of your agencies such as the climate change authority or?
>> No. No. Senator, um, not sure if I have at hand the total number. Would you like me to
>> if you could provide that to us? So, um,
>> uh, I'm sorry. that 20 organizations uh received and uh used grants. Um that includes eight First Nations organizations, six youth organizations, and six sectoral organizations. Um would you like me to to tell you the name?
>> If you could Yes, if you could maybe hand that up, that would be that would be great. Just contest of time. >> if you could hand up that list to us, that would be great.
>> Sure. And I just note that we we did provide this information uh to a question on notice that I think you had um put to us, Senator. It's
>> It could be in this pack, but I haven't
>> It may well be for reference. It's SQ2500900.
>> Okay. Thank you. >> Uh it is Minister. Uh as of February 26, could I just ask the total year-to-ate expenditure on international travel by the department since the 1st of July 2025? You gave me the you gave me the uh secretary up to 31 December of reconciled costs but we're looking I'm looking for the total total amount approved for international travel please
>> approved
>> or total expenditure
>> to date year to date
>> up until up until February 2026 up until yes to date
>> yeah we'll take I can confidently say we don't have that because of our reconciliation processes within the department, they take some time.
>> We're not look I'm not looking for the reconciliation figure. It's just looking at the expenditure incurred or forecast.
>> That's what you have to reconcile expenditure before you can account for it and describe.
>> We had this debate last time because >> there is a difference Mr. Kaiser between reconciled [snorts] costs and what's approved for travel. So you would also be forecasting prospective
travel cost. So yep, there's a difference between budgeted and reconciled. Do we have a budget?
>> So So Senator,
>> do you have the budgeted figure then?
>> So So no, we don't have a budgeted figure with us. The figures that we gave you earlier in the in the session um were the reconciled figures up until today, up until the 31st of December.
>> That's right. If you could come back to us with the budgeted figure up until February, be grateful perhaps if you could bring it back in the in the outcome the relevant outcome uh so what is up until February 2026 from 1 July last year what's the total number of international trips undertaken
>> no senator we have data up until the end of December we don't have the data including January and February available here today. So, we'd have to take it on
>> if there's any way of bringing that back to the table. So, for any trips that have incurred, I realize we're just talking about recent weeks, >> but I'm just talking about the total number of trips.
The >> Well, I can tell you up until December, but I can't tell you up until February.
>> You could tell me up until December.
>> Uh, total international trips up until the 31st of December was 257.
>> And that's individual trips. That's
right.
>> Individual individual
>> travelers. Yep.
>> Uh so that's the total number of individuals 257 who traveled.
>> Well, some individuals may have traveled more than once. It's the total number of
>> separate trips
>> seats booked perhaps. That's
>> Senator, if I may, uh trips were 257, travelers were 184.
>> and events were 114.
All right. Do you have could you provide to us and I'm just concerned that we after asking for this information we've struggled a bit. What we're seeking is for the period and you've given you've given us the period July 25 to the end of August 25. Could you please provide us
>> for the end of December 25?
>> No, I'm just asking another question though, Secretary. So I'm just seeking the name of the event or purpose of the international trip. Uh the number of trips involved, the location and the approved total for each of those trips up until up until now from 1 July, noting that you've provided those trips >> uh between August and July and August.
>> Yes. So we'll take it on notice.
>> All right. Uh, sorry, Chair.
>> No, well, that's fine. We um we're just going to go to our break um and we'll return in 15 minutes at which point Senator Henderson, do I hear you have further questions and then Senator Smith has some questions and then we'll move if we can because we're now running >> 45 minutes behind where we would ideally like to be. So, um outcome two awaits. Um indeed. So, we'll go to a break for 15 14 minutes. We'll be back at 10:30. cross portfolio in general. Uh, and I hand the call over to Senator Henderson.
>> Chair, thank you very much. I'll just continue with my questions about the
>> Sorry to interrupt actually. Um, I've omitted to say Miss McCullik had an answer to a question that I think was taken on notice. So, um, Miss McCullik,
>> uh, Senator, you asked me earlier about the the company that, um, so I can reveal that it was Telra. >> Um, and we released an FOI on um, the 16th of January which provided the
If we could have, just to be helpful, a copy of that, that would be terrific. Uh, do does the department have any contracts with Telster?
I >> I beg you, pardon.
>> Does the department have any contracts with Telster? I appreciate you may not have that. >> If we could on notice have a an understanding of the nature of those contracts.
>> Yes, I'll take that on notice.
>> Did Telster admit any liability or wrongdoing in relation to those telephone costs?
Uh, Senator, there was no admission of liability. It was a negotiation of um a commercial arrangement.
>> Thanks very much, Mr. McCullik. I do appreciate you coming back to us so quickly on that. I just want to return to the COP 30 travel costs. and I just want to just go back to so are you able to Mr. Pisa bearing in mind you may need to bring the right people to the table. Just to reiterate and just to Oh, you have got Miss Monroe. Right. Are you able Miss
>> and B?
>> Sorry.
>> Sorry. I was just saying exhibit A and B. The right people.
So, you've got some further information for us on the travel costs.
>> Uh we were intending to um we're still collecting that information. Uh we're at outcome 1 which at this current time was scheduled to start at 4:30. So that was when we were to bring back our information detailed breakdown
>> All right. Is there anything else that you can tell us in relation to COP 30?
>> No, not at this time.
>> Can I just go back to a previous question on answer to a question on notice and I'm sorry I'm just looking I don't have the number. I apologize. Um in the last estimates you provided you provided information about a range of international trips uh 1.3 million roughly in cost 76 officials to attend 26 events from July to August of last year with notable costs for trips to Switzerland, Paris, Norway, Ethiopia and the USA. So could you just detail Mr. Kaiser, maybe this is a question for you. Why was it necessary to send three people at $41,000 ahead to Norway?
Senator, that yeah, that those figures were for the whole of the department, not specifically for the climate change group and on the particulars of the Norway trip. I will need to take that on
>> Perhaps you could come back to us during the outcome to be fair. That's
>> uh we'll endeavor to do that. I think
>> yeah, that would be
>> Is there a date related to that trip? >> Uh >> I'm not sure we went to Norway more than once, but just in case
>> I I will someone helpfully might be able to send me the date of that conference. I'm just scanning through. Oh, it's no there is actually no date, but it was to attend a committee for the conservation of Antarctic marine living resources working group on acoustic survey and analysis methods.
>> So,
>> the three people traveled at $124,000.
>> So, Senator, that would be in um our outcome um I think it's four for our Antarctic. So, that they will have those details. We wouldn't have that here with us. Now
>> we might come back to those and I'm also seeking just as a heads up details of the trip to Switzerland. There was and also to Paris but I'm happy for you to come bring back the details in the appropriate outcome.
Yes, the Antarctica is outcome three, Senator. Sorry, outcome three for
>> And sorry, what were the other trips?
Just >> Switzerland. >> And there was also quite a substantial cost incurred on a trip to Busousan, South Korea, $101,000. and Paris, France, the 47th session of the World Heritage Commiss Committee. Six people traveled with a total cost of 164,000. Are you able to provide any details of why that cost was so high?
>> We'd have that's outcome two, Senator. So again, we can take it on notice.
>> We'll take it on notice. But but Senator, given that we've provided clearly some degree of description there, what what further particulars are
you seeking? just a breakdown of those costs and and what's the basis for >> incurring such what I would put to you
>> So for each of those outcomes, we'll we'll seek to ensure that people are able to describe the national interest that was served in each of those cases.
>> Yeah, that would be terrific. Thanks, Mr. Kaiser. Chair, I'll ask if we can hand over to Senator Smith now.
>> Certainly. Thank you, Senator Henderson. Senator Smith.
>> Great. Thank you very much. Um, could someone please explain to me what is the decision making process to be used to determine the location of the COP 31 pre-conference event?
>> Uh, thanks Senator. So, um, uh, the preop is is an an event that, um, happens every year. uh determination of the location of the pre-op is something that is typically um a decision of the presidency of the COP, specifically the presidency designate because the the the you you formally become president at the beginning of the COP itself. Um in in this particular year um given the arrangements we entered into with Turkey, uh that process is is different. uh and Turkey uh along with Australia agreed that the preop would be held in a Pacific island country. Uh and the process in order to determine the location in the Pacific is something uh that we have been in conversation with the Pacific about but the decision is for the Pacific to make. Uh and so the Pacific Islands Forum, which is the mechanism that um that is is managing governance as it pertains to engagement in in this process, is is working that through with Pacific Island
>> Is there um a preferred date or preferred time at which the decision um needs to be taken in order to support the various other arrangements and logistics and preparations? Um it it's
desirable for a decision to be taken as soon as possible so so invitations can be issued and logistical arrangements can be made. A preop is typically held uh within a couple of months of the COP towards the end of the year because one of the functions of the preop is is to work through the negotiating agenda uh for the the purposes of the of the COP itself. Um but no decisions have been taken with respect to specific timing or location at this point. Um but you know we we would we would welcome a decision as as soon as as the Pacific arrives at one because it will just help us manage the arrangements.
>> So when a decision is taken and it's Pacific Island nation A >> Mhm. Does it necessarily mean that the uh pre preconference event [clears throat] will be in Pacific Island A or may it be in another physical location but for one of a better word dressed as Pacific Island a event. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm just thinking of the the sort of the physical constraints of some possible um um eligible
>> senator. It feels like we're getting into a level of detail that's probably more appropriate in the outcome. Yeah.
>> Okay. So so so it's not an Australian cabinet decision for example. No. Great. So on notice, could you please just provide uh to me um details of what if any budgeted costs have been uh determined for Mr. Bowen's uh role as president of negotiations uh in the department? um whether or not and if and if what are the budgeted costs for um Australia and the department for COP 31 pre-conference participation and preparations? Um Mr. Higgins, what was the name of the IDC that's been established that you mentioned earlier in our conversation?
>> Um it it doesn't have a a formal name as I can recall, Senator. It's uh it's an IDC um that uh has met once as I as I said this this year um uh and and doesn't have a have a formal structure built around it yet. It's you know I think we we badged it um COP 31 um IDC or or something similar.
Um could you well on notice if if if between now and you making the um the information available to the committee it becomes clearer provide just the the official name but also a list of uh all other inter interdep departmental or working groups that the department is participating in external to the department so that have sorry that have representatives from other departments that are associated with the COP 31 pre-conference preparations.
Uh yes, I I can take that on notice, but I think the answer will be zero.
>> That's okay. Um and uh all emails and supporting documents that are used to consult with staff on the changes to the organizational structure um to give effect the organizational structure relating to the international climate and energy division and the international climate negotiations division to give effect to um preparations and support for the COP 31 pre-conference. resourcing the department and resourcing Mr. Bowen for the president of in his role as the president of negotiations. Would that given where we are in the budget cycle, would they feed into the budget deliberations for the budget to be announced in May or will they happen outside of that?
>> So there there was uh a so so it's not funding for Minister Bowen. um there's funding provided for the department and for a range of uh like our international climate change engagement. So in our portfolio additional estimate statements uh for the department which was published on the the 6th of February it it does report that the department will receive an additional $79.1 million over two years to support our continued uh international engagement on climate change and energy transition transition issues uh to deliver on the tea Australia partnership modalities for COP 31 and that includes as we've been discussing, hosting a pre-OP uh in the Pacific and also supporting uh and executing our role as president of the negotiations.
>> Are you able to break down that $79.1 million for me or is that best left to later in the day?
>> So that is the uh additional funding that were provided and uh yes, I do not have that uh breakdown in front of me.
>> Okay. But I can pursue that later in today and you'll be prepared. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.
>> Thank you, Senator Smith. I understand Senator McDonald has a followup from
>> I just wanted to ask you, Mr. Kaiser, um, similar questions to what I asked this morning have been asked of other departments and they all kept records of their staff and their um, HR uh, arrangements for leave. I just draw that to your attention that it seems that your department is an outlier in that
>> So be it, Senator. I mean, of course, we have centralized records for leave, but not the particular arrangements that you described. They're two different things. I mean, leave in terms of annual leave and sick leave and those sorts of categories of leave are certainly held centrally, but we don't obsessively manage uh the kinds of leave that you were describing centrally. We leave that to managers. That's what they're expected to do.
>> No, I I appreciate you think it's obsessive to be interested in how staff are paid [snorts] for public holidays. It's not how I would characterize it.
>> Well, to be fair, what Mr. Kaiser has repeatedly said is that those sorts of details are held at a individual unit level by managers and that we don't employ public servants in CRA to go and collect that kind of data. We employ public servants in CRA to do meaningful work and we trust managers around the country to manage their staff.
Um, Minister, I'm sure that you'd be the first to complain if an employer uh in the private sector wasn't keeping adequate records on their staff and how they
>> that
>> they were those records were kept. And so I heard what you said. I heard what Mr. Kaiser said. I think we just have very different views of the expectations of what are adequate recordkeeping um for human resource management.
>> I think we do have different views about how taxpayers money is best spent. Yes.