Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 24:25 to 43:50
Officials provide a breakdown of domestic and international travel costs while discussing organizational restructuring for COP31.
Topics: Travel and event costs, COP31, Public service staffing
Speakers: Dean Smith, Mike Kaiser, Kushla Munro, David Higgins, Luise McCulloch, Dana Sutton, Hon Sarah Henderson, Varun Ghosh
>> Minister, I'm asking the questions and I look forward to further answers. Can I go to Mr. Kaiser to the department's travel costs?
>> Sure.
>> If you could please provide us with a rundown of the travel costs since uh since we
>> well the
>> last met. But perhaps we could do it from 1 July of last year just to be
>> Yes. So the figures the reconciled figures that I have are from 1 July to the 31st of December. They're the figures I have on hand. >> Is that satisfactory?
>> Uh for the start. Yes.
>> Yes. So um these include airfares, accommodation and other costs for domestic travel. Um airfares, accommodation and other costs for that period were $9.6 million.
>> Could you give me a breakdown?
>> Um yes. Airfares 3.5 million, accommodation 3.6 million, and other travel costs 2.5 million.
>> And what do other travel costs comprise? >> grand transport.
>> Yeah, grand transport, meal allowances, a variety of other.
>> And where was the bulk of that money incurred in for what purpose?
>> Domestic travel.
>> That was mainly domestic travel. Could you give me a breakdown for
airfares were 2.6 million accommodation 2.1 million [snorts] other 0.3 million totaling 5 million
>> sorry other was
>> 0.3 million 300,000
>> you said the bulk of the costs were incurred domestic [clears throat] most of the airfares 2.6 million out of 3.5 million were international airfairs is that correct
>> not out of international travel was 2.6 6 million domestic travel was 3.5.
>> Oh, okay. You were not giving me the total cost, right? You were giving me total domestic costs. >> Um could you just detail how the international travel costs were
how they would
>> for which programs or which uh
>> the department the department has obligations um which arise because of government activity in terms of uh international treaties in the environment space um advancing Australia's interests in the environment and climate spaces. There are certain number of other energy and water related um international travel. These these come about predominantly because of Australia's international obligations in respect to a range of treaties which the Australian government has made the country party to. Uh and we are required to attend those conferences and to advance Australia's interest at those conferences. That is that that's the
So um could you give me a breakdown as to for which particular conference or event those international travel costs were occurred including any any uh co costs?
>> Uh sure I'll need to take that on notice. That's quite a bit of which I don't have readily at hand. You you mean the individual conferences or other events that we attended? Sure. But I'll need to take that on notice because I don't have that readily available.
>> Okay. Are you able to find someone to bring that to the table if we
>> possibly [snorts] we'll endeavor to
>> Okay. Thank you. Look, I I I do have more questions, chair, on um how much more time do I have?
>> At this stage, I mean, we're coming up against when we're scheduled to move on to the next outcome. Um
>> we've we've all got more questions.
>> You've all got more questions. Okay. Um then do you want to share the call with
your colleagues? Look, I might do that. I might actually move to um if we could to Senator Smith. Thank you very much, chair. Thank you.
>> Uh thanks very much and good morning to you. Thank you very much your for your participation. In previous estimates, we had quite a vigorous discussion about the department's compliance with order for the production of documents. uh and I was pleased to see in one of the responses to a question on notice that the department has now updated internal guidance to ensure the advice from the cler of the senate is embedded in our processes. So thank you very very much for that. So simply from me, can I have a copy of the updated guidance that now operates and a copy of the previous guidance that did operate? And I'm happy for that to be taken on notice unless officials have got anything they'd like to add.
>> No, we can take that on notice.
>> Great. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm sure uh all senators will appreciate that. Um, a more general question just in regards to monitoring the compliance of annual reports is something that is that is that something that happens at a departmental
>> Senator um if you might are you specifically talking about performance measures?
>> Uh no annual reports of uh agencies in the department itself. So the auditor general has provided some helpful advice to the committee and they say that the timely timeliness of annual report tableabling has decreased. Supplementary estimates hearings were held from the 7th to the 10th of October last year. It's a statement of fact and from the four 1st to the 4th of December 2025. again statement fact 12% of entities tabled annual reports before the October hearings and 90% of entities tabled annual reports before the December hearings of the entities required to table an annual report 10% had not tabled an annual report as at the 30th of November 2025 and just for completeness just all completeness the statutory obligation is for reports to be provided by the 15th of October so while that sounds like a, you know, particularly bad figure for the October s supplementary estimates that was still within the uh 15th of October um statutory requirements. So, I'm just keen to know um the monitoring um does that happen at the department corporate level? Uh and if it does, I just have some general questions on notice that you might be able to answer for me. So
Senator um definitely the uh department's annual report is managed at a corporate level by my group and for more detail I'll pass to my colleague.
>> Uh thank you Senator Dana Sutton. [clears throat] Um business enabling services. Uh yes certainly the department's annual report was tabled on the 2nd of October. I am familiar with the comments that's been made by the ANAO. Um my team coordinate the tableabling of that. So each individual entity is responsible for those legislative requirements. But your question was do we monitor that? We definitely have a role and if people are not have not provided that to us we would definitely make phone calls to remind them of their obligations but the actual obligation still resides with the entity as you would appreciate Senator.
So for the for the year 23 for the calendar year 23, calendar year 24 and calendar year 25 on notice, could you just advise me um which agencies um did not meet the tableabling requirement for their annual report? So if you could tell me how many and which ones for each of those three calendar years would be helpful. are you
referring to within this portfolio?
>> Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah.
>> We'll take it on notice.
>> Great. Thank you. >> Y >> I just want to turn to the matter of uh preparations for COP 31, not in their detail because I'm assuming that that would be uh in the relevant um part of the department
>> as we discussed last time. S
>> that's right. I think you said uh you were working through the issues secretary is how you described them last time. But I at at a macro level, are you able to advise the committee um what structural changes, if any, have taken place to accommodate preparations for COP 31 pre-conference event?
Um [snorts] well in general terms uh we reorganized the efforts of the climate change group to focus on um the COP 30 our COP 31 obligations whereas we were we we were adopting a stance of potentially having to host a COP. So that that that's required a reorganization of effort within that
group. So could you explain to me what reorganization in that group has taken
>> Uh if I if I might, Senator, um uh my colleagues are coming to the table from a departmental point of view. We're actually um going through some consultation arrangements with our staff at the moment. So any reorganization um we carefully consult with our staff to ensure that they've got an opportunity to engage and those consultations haven't completed yet but we have made some high level macro changes and I can pass to my colleague to answer that.
>> Thank you Senator uh Kushel Monroe deputy secretary for climate change. Uh the the principal change uh is a reduction actually in uh the number of divisions. So, we no longer have an operational COP 31 operations division. And again, that reflects that we're no longer responsible uh for hosting the entire uh COP 31 uh which would have been in partnership with the South Australian government in in Adelaide, but instead uh focused on our role as president of the negotiations, but also the responsibility of uh working with the Pacific to still host a significant event uh in the Pacific called the the
>> So, and I should have had a look at this before we began this morning. Does the organizational chart uh for the department incorporate these structural changes?
>> I I just need to um maybe refer to my
colleague. >> Well, as the head of corporate, Mccullik said, we're still undergoing consultations with staff and have not finalized the structure.
>> But how can you be discussing with staff if you haven't confirmed a structure?
Well, we can be discussing a proposed structure before.
>> What's the proposed structure secretary?
>> Well, it's as deputy secretary described.
>> Perhaps perhaps you might um we shown we don't have a whiteboard. I'd invite [laughter] you to sort of sketch it out,
>> but it's not yet it's not yet reflected in a published >> departmental organizational chart is my point.
>> We're in consultation. Um but uh from the 4th of February there was effectively a um an operational shift and change uh from three from to to remove the the COP 31 operations division. Uh the the the detail though which is under consultation with staff is what their role will be in the in the new organizational structure. So, so what is published is um a little bit behind uh where we are, but that's that's ongoing consultations, but we are making the necessary steps to effectively rightsize our workforce to uh acquit our responsibilities.
>> Senator, if I may, we have a routine where we update our old chart once a month at the beginning of every month. Um and that will reflect both changes in personnel andor changes in structure. Um what I'm not sure of and I've asked my colleagues to check I don't think we've updated um in our latest update which would be a February update the changes that have just been started just putting in place now would not have taken effect and would therefore not be in our published or chart but I'll confirm that
um can you um explain to me what this um looks like? So, I'm keen to understand um what various staffing classifications might exist in this soon to be confirmed um um what word did you use, Secretary? um rearrangement.
>> So, so Senator um in fact that's exactly what we're consulting with the staff on. So, we've put a provo proposed highle structure to them.
>> So, what is the proposed highle structure? Thank you very much for helping me with that, Miss McCallik. What is the proposed highle structure?
It's as um Miss Monroe said, it's actually a reduction um or a removal of one division and a reduction in the number of divisions. It's also a reduction from memory in in the number of branches that we have at the high level. We
>> So I understand that it's a reduction of things. That's been said a few times. I'm keen to understand what it looks like now. What is it? What does it look like now?
So
>> in draft form or proposed form
>> in consultation uh with our staff uh there is effectively um our existing division the international climate and energy division and then we also have an international negotiations division and sitting underneath those two uh divisions are people who will be responsible for the actual negotiations our ongoing bilateral relationships that we have with countries as well as the operational aspects uh for hosting uh the pre-OP with the Pacific.
>> So what are the subunits that will exist or do exist in the international negotiations division to accommodate the COP 31 pre-conference event? Yeah, I I
actually do not have that detail with me, Senator. So, I'll just have to take that on notice
>> when we come back to it this afternoon. Will you
>> We can come back to it this afternoon.
>> These are incredibly detailed questions to be asking during the general corporate session of the department. Senator,
>> I like to think, Secretary, these are traits of senators, detailed questions.
Well,
>> the purpose of Senate estimates,
>> another trait of senators is setting an agenda. >> Sorry. Another trait of senators is setting an agenda which the department works hard to try to abide by.
>> Oh, you mean following the agenda. That's right. Well, I'm not going to pursue that question any further with Miss Monroe because I said to her a moment ago >> that we'll come back to it at the appropriate outcome, but I'm still interested in better understanding what are those organizational issues across So the international and climate energy division, what subunits in that exist or will exist to support the COP 31 pre-conference event?
>> Senator David Higgins, um, head of division international climate and energy, the division to which you just referred. Um, as Ms. Monroe and Ms. McCullik referred. We're in the process
of consulting with staff in order to arrive at what we think is the optimal arrangement for that setup in order to deliver the the things we need to deliver. That includes the business as usual functions that we are responsible for and the COP 31 related work. I can describe to you the current structure of my division but the future the future structure of my division is is quite genuinely the subject of consultation and won't be arrived at until that consultation is concluded which is a couple of weeks away.
>> So Mr. Higgins um you you wouldn't be consulting over a blank piece of paper would you? So what is the what is the proposal that you are consulting over and sharing with staff to get their feedback on?
>> As as it pertains to my my division, Senator Smith, um we have one division that is responsible for strategic partnerships. These are the bilateral relationships um for which we uh uh that that we that we carry with with partner countries around the the world. um uh there are a range of of elements um contained within that but but broadly speaking uh they're responsible for strategic partnerships a division that's sorry a branch that is responsible for our regional work so closer to home across the Indoacific in particular with Southeast Asia uh the countries of the the of the Pacific uh and then uh a branch that uh will be responsible for um the operational delivery of the elements that pertain to uh COP 31 responsibility ities, most notably the delivery of the preop in the Pacific to which Ms. Monroe referred.
Ms. Monroe, are you able to provide um any information in the similar form to Mr. Higgins was able to provide me just then in terms of what what is the draft plan you are consulting with staff over?
>> Yes. So, Senator, that is the detail that I intend to come back uh when we uh are on outcome one. I just wouldn't want to mislead you and I don't have that detail right in front.
>> Okay, you did say that. That that's that's that's fair. So, what IDC steering groups, project groups have been established across government that the department is involved in, Mr.
>> in this policy
>> in regards to in regards to the COP 31
>> Sorry, my colleagues may have that detail.
>> Senator Smith, um we have an an IDC process um on foot. Um it involves principally the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade given the the strong foreign policy related aspects of COP 31 and in particular u the the importance of our partnership with the countries of the Pacific. Um and obviously the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet invol is involved in those discussions as well. um that that's the the the principal IDC that exists at um at my level at division head level um to manage these processes.
>> So on foot meaning that it's not yet formally stood up or is about to be stood up.
>> Uh it it exists uh uh presently. Um we have uh met once this uh this calendar year but we have not formalized um the the schedule or the the the basis of the of the standing agenda.
>> And who is the chair of that? Is it foreign affairs and trade? Is it PMNC?
>> it's chaired by DQ by our department?
Okay. Do we have to move on? Okay. >> Okay. I'll continue when we come back to