Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 1:49:08 to 2:34:47
Discussion focuses on government policy regarding gambling advertising and the reliability of the Triple Zero emergency network. Senators challenge the accuracy of account deactivation data provided by the eSafety Commissioner.
Topics: Public safety, Online safety
Speakers: Hon Sarah Henderson, Unknown Speaker, Jim Betts, Chris Fogarty, Christie McClure, Clare Chapple, Dean Smith, Dr Jason Ashurst, Margaret Lopez, Nita Green, Samuel Grunhard, Sarah Hanson-Young, Sarah Vandenbroek, Speaker 20, Varun Ghosh
>> thank you. Um, back on to um the lack of action on gambling advertising. crack down on gambling advertising?
Minister, sorry, Senator. Um the the government takes seriously our responsibility to protect Australians particularly young and vulnerable people from the harms of online gambling. We as we've said to you today and we will um have said to you before we are actively working on this piece of work and that includes the minister meeting with stakeholders. we will get some information to you about um what meetings have taken place recently but I can tell you that that those meetings include um harm reduction advocates um
introduce legislation to curb online
Senator, I'm not going to preempt any government decision. Um, we are working on um, uh, responding um, to the Peter Murphy report. Um, we have undertaken significant gambling harm reduction measures which this department took you through in depth. Um, and we'll continue to do that work. Um, and we know that this is something that is of very keen interest um, across the parliament. Um and we will um uh uh when there is a decision um we will um announce that.
Uh Senator, we've provided advice to the minister in terms of a range of options um and restrictions that could be applied in this space. said, um government hasn't taken a Um Senator, I think we previously talked about um the work that um the previous minister has done in this space. There was extensive consultation um undertaken since the um uh committee handed down >> Um Senator, yes, we have done work in Uh in terms of the specifics um I don't think we can disclose that given the commercial sensitivities around um um we got some figures from um Neielson um who um collect data in this space and >> Uh combination. sensitive. Um we can't public publicly >> Oh, so it's it's it's sensitive to >> Uh I' I'd need to check what the specifics around the contract are, Senator. I'm not sure if that um
>> when was that contract um agreed? Um so
we've done a number of data requests um with um with Neielson. So our first request um was in uh sorry in 2023. We had a second request in in 2024 and um a further request in 2025. >> Yes, Senator.
sure it's a universal principle that everything that taxpayers fund should be
public policy, be good to know why.
>> And if you're using it for the purposes of cabinet consideration, for instance, it will be subject to uh confidentiality and similarly if it contain commercially sensitive information. There are many circumstances in which these
>> We wouldn't comment um Senator on specifics of what we provide in cabinet
documents. Well, well, no, hang on. If it's if if you're claiming cabinet incompetence, then I need to know whether it's gone to cabinet. You can't
>> Senator hasn't >> been there. >> Senator, if your request is to see the data, I think given what Miss Lopez has said, the appropriate thing for us to do would be to take that on notice. >> So that we can properly consider the circumstances or the requirements of the contract and the committee's request to
well uh I'd like to see the data.
>> We will take that on notice, Senator.
>> Um and uh I'd also like to see the
>> We will take that on notice, Senator. >> I understand.
>> Senator, just in terms of that, the the details are on O tender in terms of our purchases of the Neielson data.
the data that you've used from Nelson, why did you why did you have um three goes as it at it? Was it because you've put three different options so they've had to refine that data or what why is there three options? >> Uh Senator, it's for different contracts. >> It's for different time periods. I my um recollection is that we purchase the data from Neielson on a calendar basis. So those would be calendar years um that Neielson's provided the um data for us. >> and what's the purpose of uh knowing ascertain how much the broadcasters would lose from gambling advertising? Um, Senator Neielson was engaged to provide data on the volume of wagering advertising and wagering advertising revenue across all platforms, not just broadcasting. >> Okay. So, um, could you outline that for me then? So, you've got data in relation to, um, television, broadcast, advertising. >> Yes. >> You've got data in relation to what else? >> Um, uh, radio as well as online and I think outdoor as well. I'll need to take the specifics on notice. I don't have that in front of me cuz there is I think a range in terms of um what specific data we did get um and the breakdowns across for example like metro radio or did we get um regional as well but I would need to take the specifics on notice. >> Sure. Is there any data on um inducements the impact of direct messaging on people's from um the gambling companies sending direct messages to people? Uh, no senator,
that's not something we have um uh have
>> Senator Young, that's 10 minutes and we're due to go to our break. Um, I will come back to you in the round. Um, >> I'm in a position now to release the officials from the Australian Film, Television, and Radio School. Um, thank you and I thank my colleagues for their assistance in that respect. Uh, we will return at 11:15. Thank you. We'll make a start before I hand over to Senator Henderson for the next block. I will um give the call to Mr. Betts.
>> Thank you. Just a couple of follow-ups on questions asked by Senator Henderson in the first couple of hours. I might start with um Miss McClure. Thank you.
>> Um in response to a question around um legal expenditure um I have the name of the high court case that I referred to earlier. Um that is Palmanova Proprietary Limited and the Commonwealth of Australia and the citation is uh 2025 HCA 35. um that was about the seizure of a Bolivian artifact and the matter before the high court was a statutory interpretation
>> Okay. And we also sorry >> have anything else?
>> Yes. Thank you.
>> Thank Thank you. Do any other
>> you asked about the breakdown of uh staff lawyers and um and other staff. Um there is one SCES band two lawyer and I will give you the ASL numbers um because some people work part-time of course we have two SCES band one lawyers we have 7.8 8 EL2 lawyers, 15.4 EL1 lawyers, 6.7 APS 6 lawyers, 2.8 APS5 lawyers, and 0.4 APS4 lawyers. We have a legal practice management unit and that's staffed by 1.7 E1 um admin offic um officials and 3.6 APS5 Um I also have um some information about the social media minimum age litigation that you asked about. Um so I confirm that the department is leading that matter. It's consulting with relevant stakeholders in doing so. Um being the office of e safety and the office for constitutional law in the attorney general's department. Um there is no cost sharing arrangement with that Um in terms of next steps,
>> right? So you're you're bearing all of
Um, so you wanted the next steps.
>> Is that set down? What's the status of the litigation? Is that does that have a proceeding dates or is there a that that's actively on foot? Is there a is there a a case set down to be heard?
There is. The matter is next listed for further directions on or after the 28th of April, 2026. Um, the court has ordered steps prior to that date which I can share with you. The plaintiff's draft special case is due to be served by the 20th of February, 2026. The Comwalth's revised draft special case is due to be served by the 27th of March 2026. And an agreed special case between both parties is due uh to be served on the 24th of April 2026.
>> Okay. Thank you.
information in relation to the tower in >> Carangmite.
>> Oh, thank you, Secretary.
>> Um, thank you, Senator. So, you asked about the tower at St. Leonard's. You're right that that was part of the improving mobile coverage round of the mobile blackspot program. Uh, it was contracted in February 2024. Since that time, Telster has been So, that's Telster is the proponent. Charra has been working to get the appropriate uh land approvals, acquisitions, and so on that they always need to get for this sort of project. I'm pleased to say that they have achieved all of those. So, they're now in a position to commence the build and they're expecting it to be on air um broadcasting by the second
>> Right. Do you know where it will be? Uh
I I don't have the coordinates on me, Senator, but um Telster is required to uh keep an update on their website. They've got a dedicated page for these sites. So we it may be there, but we can check that. But um
>> All right. If you could provide any further information on notice about about where it is and what the holdup was. >> And uh any other that would be that would be appreciated. So Kio, I just want to return to the issue I raised before about the claim that 4.7 million social media accounts have been deactivated since the social media minimum age law was passed by the parliament. Now the reason that this is important, particularly important from the government's perspective, is the prime minister put out a media release on the 16th of January with uh the Minister for Communications claiming that 4.7 million under 16 accounts have been deactivated, removed or restricted within days of the law coming into effect. now and yet this contradicts the public information available from Meta and Snapchat uh and the like. So for instance, Meta is saying that they've deactivated 550,000 accounts which of course in includes Instagram, Facebook and Threads. Uh Snapchat I think they're saying 415,000 accounts. So that's around about a million. That's and clearly there are other platforms involved in the social media ban, but there looks like there's a very significant gap between what the platforms say they've deactivated and what the e safety commissioner has has stated. Now the prime minister and the minister for communications have relied on the e safety's uh representations. I'm not blame or not I'm not attributing blame to the prime minister other than if the government is not seeking to verify the right figure given this these two different conflicting figures then surely that's an issue that you would want to see rectified.
>> Well the e safety commissioner is the government. She is a creation of the government. She is a government regulator. Um, so I think it is legitimate for us and for ministers to rely on information provided by the e safety commissioner. And as I explained earlier, she'll be on the stand later on today to answer any questions you might have. Mann,
>> just in response to that though, I'm not questioning that there is now evidence that contradicts the e safety commissioner's claim which the min the prime minister has relied on and the minister for communications by reason of the fact that we've got the big platforms with their figures. So based on that, it just doesn't look like the ESAP commissioner is correct. And I'm just seeking answers as to why you, the department, on behalf of your own minister, is not urgently seeking to ascertain the factual matters in relation to this claim
>> because we are legitimately relying on information provided by a government entity, a statutory authority created by law, by the parliament, which I think is a reasonable thing for us to rely on. and she and the e safety commissioner will front up and be able to explain this to you.
>> But you don't want the minister to be wrong or the prime minister in terms of the claims they they've given the Australian people which of course have been broadcast and published very widely in many different media organizations
>> to be wrong which is why I think it's important that they rely on advice from well- reggarded um public authorities like the e safety commissioner.
all right. Thanks. We will look forward to that further information and and the information that I've already asked for on notice.
>> so just to be clear, the department has >> um been asked to make any inquiries about the discrepancy between the 4 million plus number and data that is available publicly from Meta and others.
>> Uh Senator, we're not aware of any discrepancy. The E safety commissioner is not disputing the numbers released by those two platforms. The 4.7 is an aggregate across 10 platforms and our information from the safety commissioners team is that the numbers are reliable. There is no discrepancy.
>> Oh, so can we ask for a copy of the information you've received from the safety commission?
>> We haven't received any information. That was from a conversation where they said they didn't have any concerns with the data released from those two platforms, but they are two of 10 platforms that make up the aggregate
>> can you give us the breakdown of the other platforms?
>> No, we don't have that information any
safety, Senator.
>> You haven't sought that information. So, you're obviously worried about it,
>> No, I don't think that's
>> No, that's not my concerns about the validity of the number 4.7.
>> And the use of the term deactivation is specific to the deactivations uh resulting from the social media ban. It's not to be interpreted more broadly than that. there's a similar understanding between the department uh and the e safety commissioner in terms of what the deactivations actually represent.
>> Yes. But that um again question for the e safety commissioner but it's uh deactivations in the days immediately prior to and following the um activation of the social media minimum age on the 10th of December 2025.
>> Okay. I would like to turn to the Optus outage if I could please. >> I'm just wondering whether all telecommunications operators complied with the outage register requirements that were required to be in place from the 16th of December.
>> Yes. So um while the team is um taking to the table we uh have the um triple0ero custodian a team now established by statute within the department as of the 19th of January 28 staff um dedicated full-time and funded um through the telecommunications services special account and the teleun telecommunications industry levy over to the custodian.
>> Thank you Senator Clay Chapel first assistant secretary triple0 custodian division. So just to um so I can answer your question correctly the Optus outage just the date that you're referring to there what which what information are you after?
>> So sorry I know you were coming to the table when I was asking the question. I was asking about whether the telco carriers complied with the outage register requirements that were required to be put in place from the 16th of
>> Uh yes so I might pass to my colleague Mr. Fogerty.
>> Uh Chris Fogerty acting assistant secretary custodian implementation. Uh yes uh Senator the um mobile network operators did have their public websites up available on the 15th of December as it was and um they were all uh available for public to see in accordance with what's known as the service provision determination service provider sorry determination.
>> So since that date how many outages to the triple0 network have there been for
each carrier? Uh I'll just see if my colleague has that information. If not, we'll get it on notice.
to draw that distinction between network outages versus triple0ero outages. They are um sometimes the same thing but not always the same thing. Um and so the information um that we might ask colleague Mr. Cans to provide will be in relation to outages rather than
provide the details of each outage on notice for each operator, the length of time and the geographical location for each outage, please?
>> Yes, Senator, we're happy to take that on notice.
>> Uh, are you aware of any specific triple0 outages since that date?
>> Uh, Senator, I might um would it be Miss Would it be you, Mr. Fergy?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um I think a better way to describe it is a triple0ero disruption. Um because it's not an outage to the network as such. There is no triple0ero network. It's a system. Um but there has been some incidences that we've been advised of. Um and with those they've been um followed up through the uh carriers and also through the emergency service organizations in regards to
>> So how many can you provide some more detail?
>> Oh we will take that on notice. Provide
a little detail. Was anyone was anyone not able to call triple0?
>> There were instances where there were some circumstances where calls didn't get through um and that's where the welfare checks were undertaken. Um and our knowledge from discussing with the emergency service organizations and the um mobile network operators is that there hasn't been any incidents where there was uh the follow-up on the welfare checks made sure that everyone
>> Right. So can you just describe which is there certain event events which describe each outage or
certain events. I believe there was one recently where there was a um incidents with uh some networks that weren't be able to get through to the uh emergency call person due to some hardware issues. However, there was a redundancy process in place with those that kicked in that enabled those calls to continue on. But there were a certain limited number that were then followed up through welfare
>> Okay. So, if if if it's possible to bring those back to the table so we could have a look um at a look at that, that would be appreciated. could you also update the committee on the device issues with iPhones? and and access to triple0.
>> So this is the iPhone 8 issue on the Telster network.
>> Yes, there's various iPhone issues, but there's been a recently published iPhone issue.
>> Yeah, certainly. Um so it's an issue that we were made aware of um by Telstra and by Optus um by Apple as soon as it happened. Um we were in really close contact with both of those organizations um over the duration of the incident. Um and we were advised and and we can get the date for you um fairly quickly I think of of when that incident was resolved.
the resolving of the incident was on the 30th of January
>> and how was that resolved? uh it was
resolved between Telster and uh Apple organizing a software update to address the issues that impacted um selected number of older iPhones, the iPhone 8, 8 Plus and X. Um but it only impacted the Telra network and essentially it made the um the phones just not able to work. Um it was the software update that happened and uh what happened was Telstra and Apple worked together to actually fix that address and fix and address the issue and made those um information available to the public and then this the software update was able to be put in place and it's all been addressed.
>> And probably just worth noting for the record too that the the issue was to do with all calls received and and outwardbound, not just triple0ero calls.
>> Yeah. And so
>> after a particular software upgrade,
>> a particular software,
>> yeah, a global iPhone update.
>> And how many customers were impacted during that time?
>> Uh we did receive advice
>> Yeah.
>> And that that advice for us was from Telstra. >> And were there any consequences of people not being able to dial trip0?
>> No, there wasn't. Um what actually occurred also was that the um SOS capability in Campon facility still worked. So there were other avenues to be able to dial triple0.
>> Is that correct in all cases?
>> I wouldn't say all cases, but I'll take that on notice.
>> So yeah, if if it was a Telster customer that had access to another network, they may have been able to access the campon function if they were calling triple0. um but we have not had any reports via Telra um or our stakeholders that there had been any issues calling trip0 during that incident.
>> So from previous questions on notice we've um we've learned that 70 to 75 outages notifications occur each week to the department. ACMA says it also receives reports of 35 major outages and 1794 significant local outages and that occurred between 31 December 24 and 31 October 25. So given the magnitude and the frequency of these outage incidents, what work has the department undertaken to quantify the economic and social impacts of these outages on communities?
principal focus has been on ensuring public safety through the uh work of the custodian to ensure that um triple0ero functionality continues to be available.
>> So what are you do you have continuing concerns about access to triple0?
>> We have to it's it's our job to be continually concerned about it. We have a an ecosystem of responsibilities um with uh carriers with um the emergency call person. We have a regulator in the form of ACMA. We have emergency services organizations operated by this um state and territories. And the role of the custodian is not always to be the first responder in every circumstance, but to look across that ecosystem and make sure that it is absolutely tuned up um to minimize any risk to the community and to coordinate responses in the event that an outage occurs which illustrates um any vulnerability in that system plus the undertaking proactive testing through the work that uh University of Technology at Sydney have been undertaking on our behalf. Sorry by
asking yeah by asking about concerns do I mean are there any outstanding um significant issues concerning Australians access to triple0 right now? Are there any is there anything else that has emerged that has not been made public
>> as in an outage that's affecting
>> Well, an outage or a device issue or a any other any other information that you're holding that has not been made public which impacts on Australians access to triple0?
>> Not to my knowledge, Senator. I mean, you know, as you'd be aware, there are a number of incidents that the ACMA is currently investigating. Um, and that may, you know, reveal things that are of additional concern to us. Excuse me. But our job um is to you know as as outages occur as any issues are identified with handsets or the interaction between handsets and networks our job is to hear about them find out whether that's an isolated incident or whether excuse me whether it's a sign that there's something more systemic and concerning from a triple0ero access perspective
so you you're not aware of any current issues that have not been made public with the triple0ero network?
>> No, Senator, not significant issues.
>> Okay.
>> And you need to write me up to you.
>> I do. Yes.
>> Yeah. Okay. Thanks.