Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 1:24:53 to 1:49:08
Discussion covers media reform frameworks for smart speakers and digital inclusion initiatives for First Nations communities. Officials provide updates on the prominence framework for televisions and the rollout of community Wi-Fi in remote areas.
Topics: Online safety, First Nations
Speakers: Hon Sarah Henderson, Sarah Hanson-Young, James Penprase, Dr Jason Ashurst, Margaret Lopez, Cathie Kennedy, Jim Betts, Nita Green, Samuel Grunhard, Sarah Vandenbroek, Speaker 20, Speaker 22, Varun Ghosh
>> Thank you. Um firstly I just want to uh update on what to the recommendations made when we had the uh anti-iphoning and prominence uh legislation. There was a uh the legislation uh committee. So this committee's report to that um inquiry included a number of recommendations including the need for uh prominence to be uh looked at in terms of smart speakers and radio. I'm keen to know where that is up to.
>> Okay. The relevant officials are coming
>> James, assistant secretary media reform branch. Uh in late 2024 um the government released a proposals paper for certain um a framework for radio prominence for smart speakers. Um that process was run and the government is um obviously considering um the views and perspectives put and the next steps in relation to that proposal but there's no particular decision point or announcement that's been made to this
>> Okay. And what about prominence on uh radios in cars?
>> At this stage, the proposals paper focused on smart speakers. Um obviously the the inquiry process um examined the potential for the application to cars. The the the committee inquiry actually concluded that cars are a more complex proposition and would need to be considered potentially at a later point. Um but uh obviously that's um that's a matter for government as to how it shapes its uh approach to radio
prominence. Okay. But we haven't So it's a long way off is what you what I'm hearing. I mean
>> I can't provide commentary on timing, Senator, but it's it's obviously um a matter for government as to to when it wants to bring forward a proposal.
on uh the prominence legislation that was passed and the requirements in
>> Early days, Senator. The the the framework for television prominence commenced on the 10th of January. >> So, it's only been a little over a month that it's been in place. Uh, there is a requirement for review uh of the framework, a statute requirement for review and that's probably the the most logical point to assess uh the the the effect of the the framework itself. Um,
has there been any industry push back on it starting on January 10? Is everybody
>> There certainly concerns There were certainly concerns raised through the development of the proposals paper about the the impacts and implications for television manufacturers. Was part of the reason why the the commencement period was was set at 18 months to give those manufacturers sufficient time to get into a position to be able to um uh you know adhere to the requirements of the prominence framework. Uh from what we understand um manufacturers have been working or we know that manufacturers have been engaging very closely with the ACMA as they um oversee and administer the framework in the leadup to the 10th of January date. That's been quite productive and I think there's been a lot of um uh um useful engagement between the regulator and the entities who are dealing with what is a new framework. It's a new and novel framework in Australia. Nothing like it. Um but as I understand it, it's um it's
the review due?
>> Uh it's I double check that Senator. It's two years from the commencement of the framework. So I think do you have it?
framework is required to commence as soon as practical after January 2028.
>> 2028. Um, one of the other recommendations and a commitment from government uh, following this legislation was in relation to um, regulations for um, Svods and Bods and kind of the advertising, prominence, anti-sciphoning, all of those things got kind of in the digital space got put into that commitment to do a review and come back with um regulation options. Where are we up to
with regulating VODs? >> I'm not aware of a commitment to in
government. It was a government report.
>> Uh no, Senator, I'd have to be refreshed as to the specific commitment.
>> The Senate inquiry into this legislation controlled by government members. It was in the recommendations of that report.
>> Yeah. Know, I'm familiar with the the the recommendation, but the response was that those matters would be considered as part of future policy development
>> Yes. And I'm asking what is where are we
>> Well, obviously um those matters are being considered by government. There's been a framework implemented, introduced and passed in relation to the regulation of Australian content on streaming services. >> Broader regulation of bods and sods um is a matter being considered, but um it's it's obviously timing and next steps are a matter for government. So
there's no there's no de there's no you know meat on the bone in terms of regulating bods.
>> There's nothing I can uh indicate at this point Senator. There's no decision
>> Um Mr. Mr. Betts, is there is is this something I mean, it wasn't listed in your list of legislative overview that I asked you about earlier um for the kind of legislative 2026 plan. But I just I mean I'm surprised we're we're now 18 months down the track from when that and the government said, "Oh, well, we'll get to it." Um, who in your department would be responsible? Is there a is it is it you? >> Okay. And it's not on your and it and and you haven't been asked to do it.
>> We continue to provide advice to to government minister. It's part of our job. Um, as to timings and decisions, that's a matter for government.
what about the review into the new uh anti- siphoning rules? There was a commitment from the government to review that. Where are we up to?
>> Well, the statutory requirement is the review be commenced as soon as practical after the 17th of December this year. It's as soon as practical after that date. Um we are obviously um uh you know we will be working towards that and the review will commence at a point after that date but um that's uh that's where the statute requirement sits.
So people just have to miss out on being able to access their favorite sporting team or I mean it's been it hasn't worked has it?
>> I'll take that as a comment. Senator,
>> where are we up to with uh response to the Peter Murphy report?
Um, Senator, the government takes seriously its responsibility to protect Australians, particularly children and young people, from the harms of online gambling. Um, the government has delivered a number of significant gambling harm reduction initiatives. Um, this includes launching Betstop, the National Self-exclusion Register, um, which had over 54,000 registrations as at December 2025. The government's also banned the use of credit cards for online wagering um which with that legislation commencing in June 2024. Uh the government's also introduced mandatory minimum classifications for gambling like content. This includes for loot boxes and simulated gambling um in computer games which was introduced in September 2024. Um the government's also introduced mandatory customer pre-verification in September 2023. This requires wagering service providers to verify customers identity before they can place a bet. And they've also introduced uh new evidence t uh based taglines with stronger messages about the risks and harms of online wagering.
>> And what about the um commitments to uh ban gambling advertising? Where are we
Um, Senator, since being sworn in, the Minister for Communications um has met with a with harm reduction advocates, broadcasters, and sporting codes to discuss the online gambling inquiry report and the harms of gambling.
>> Um, how many meetings has the minister had in relation to banning gambling
>> Uh, Senator, I don't have that information on hand, but I understand there's been a number of um FOIs and other um questions on notice which have
minister um had any meetings in the last two weeks in relation to this matter?
>> Uh Senator, not that I'm aware of. We don't take on notice.
and is there any other ministers that the department has briefed or facilitated um uh in relation to gambling
advertising? Senator, we don't generally brief other ministers besides
>> I know I'm asking. >> Is there any Has there been any other briefings or meetings facilitated or organized by the department for any other minister?
>> Not to my knowledge, then Senator,
>> can we get that checked? >> Um well, I've got a lot on the gambling space, so I'm happy to I'm I'm happy to put a pin in it there and then come back.
>> Thank you. Thanks very much. Um Senator
>> Thank you very much. I want to ask about an issue close to my heart and it is the commitment made by the member for Corangomite to the people of St. Leonard's in Victoria that there would be a new mobile tower to be established in St. Leonards and operational by mid May of 2025. We'll just get the right people. >> Thank you so much. As I understand, this mobile tower is not yet operational.
>> Thank you, Senator Sam Grunhard, First Assistant Secretary, Connectivity Division. I'm sorry, could you just outline the commitment you're referring to?
>> Yes, it was a commitment made by the member for Kangamite to construct a new mobile tower in St. Leonard's, Victoria.
Senator, can I just clarify? Was that one of the improving mobile coverage uh round commitments in the 2022 election? Is that what you're referring to?
Well, it was uh it was a specific mobile blackspot program uh under MBSP6 Vic 2 >> uh as part of the improving mobile coverage round >> in October 2023.
>> Thank you, Senator. So, I don't have um so yes, that was conducted under the improving mobile coverage round of the mobile blackspot program. Uh I don't have the details of every tower in front of me, but I'm very happy to check that and we can get you an answer. if you
could come back to the table on that because
>> we'll try to get you an update, Senator.
>> Uh because I understand uh uh Miss Koka in May 25 uh had informed her constituents it would be completed >> in May 25. >> Uh but this has been delayed and not delivered. >> Okay. >> So is it possible for for you to call
>> when we get down to individual towers, Senator? Obviously, I I don't have every single one in front of me, but we'll try to get you an answer. No problem.
>> Uh, thank you. All right. Well, we can ask further details about that. >> Uh, I want to move to the to the social media ban. Uh so the social media minimum age minister's information kit was delivered to MPs and senators office offices in this place. Um who else was the kit
>> I'm not sure if we have that level of detail on a session. We might have to take that on notice.
>> Do you know how many kits were produced and the cost of designing and printing and distributing those kits?
>> Um campaign cost.
>> Yeah, it would come under the campaign costs. I believe our colleagues might
costs would be covered as part of the campaign expenditure and I think our colleagues might have that answer for
>> is this a $20 million campaign?
>> Uh Kathy Kennedy, assistant secretary communication branch. We distributed a range of um kits uh and they were both digital. The majority were digital and some were hard copy. We did do some printing internally uh for the hard copy kits and I can give you the cost of those. >> Yes, please. Um so the hard copy information kits included flyers, uh some talking points, a poster, fact sheet, and a cover letter. the cost excluding GST was 45,555 and then we also did a reprint um of around a thousand uh of um those contents and we did those internally and they were the cost of $298 for posters and $125 for flyers. We then did a third print run and that was $318 uh $128 for flyers and $24 for fact sheets. Um there was a final um reprint of $2,775. So I'm sorry I don't have the total of all of those, but they they were the
individual costs. I just want to ask on the social media ban itself. Has the department been provided with information on the implementation of the measure including the number of accounts which have been deactivated?
>> We've been provided with the aggregated number which is the 4.7 million that you would have seen in various media articles. We haven't been provided with a breakdown of that figure.
So you've been Could you provide us with the So what information have you received in relation to the 4.7 million and where did that come from?
>> Uh the E safety commissioner advised us of the 4.7 million but we have not been provided with a breakdown by platform of that number.
>> Have you sought a breakdown?
>> Uh yes the E safety commissioner said that is relevant to investigative work that they're doing and it's not something that they would share.
So
>> well it's a very big claim because I think the minister's now relied on that claim uh in terms of the success of the the so-called success of the social media
>> and when she made that announcement she had the e safety commissioner standing next to her. Um so the e safety commissioner is on the stand at 3:15 scheduled to be 315 this afternoon and
>> so this is this figure has been contradicted by meta and other platforms. They say it's nothing close to 4.7 million. Have you sought a
>> Senator, um
>> because it looks like a discredited figure.
>> I should say for the record, David McCay, deputy secretary, as Miss Vandenbroek said, we we have asked E Safety for a breakdown, which they were not prepared to provide us for the reasons that Miss Vandenbroek outlined. Um questions about the figure are are really best put to the e safety
commission. Well, no. I'm asking you about this figure because it's the ACF commissioner published this figure as a hallmark of the success of the social media ban and yet this has been grossly contradicted by the platforms.
>> Senator, it's not our figure. Um, and so we're not really in a position to address >> no a contradiction of it.
>> So why won't e safety share this with your department and the minister?
>> Really a question for e safety senator.
So you can't direct the EF a safety
commissioner is an independent regulator operating within a statutory framework established by the parliament
>> but wouldn't you be concerned that this figure is out there and it's potentially very wrong or misleading and you would want to try and ascertain the facts.
>> I have the highest regard for the safety commissioner and the integrity of her organization and I think we're entitled to rely on information provided by her and she will front up to Senate estimates this afternoon and answer any
Uh what briefings have you provided to the minister on the implementation of
>> Uh the safety commissioner briefs the minister on implementation rather than the department. The safety commissioner is capturing the data about implementation and also doing the the longer term um evaluation. So that's a
>> So you're not you're not seeking regular updates from the e safety commissioner.
>> The minister is seeking regular updates. We receive those updates when they're given to the minister.
>> Just on notice, could we have a copy of those updates? >> So, the correspondence between the e safety commissioner and and the minister's office and the department.
>> Senator, on notice, we we will take on notice things we have received, but I think if you're seeking correspondence between e safety and the minister, that should properly be put to e safety.
>> Well, I'm also putting it to you or to through through the minister if you could take that on notice. I there's just been this this number has been ridiculed that platforms are saying it's nowhere near 4.7 million and so there's this gives rise to a real credibility issue which reflects on the government. You haven't sought and through you secretary you haven't sought to ascertain what the correct figure is and reconcile two very different stories. We
have we have relying on the e safety commissioner who as I say is the authority established by you by the parliament um to undertake the statutory functions assigned to her. So and you will have the opportunity for at least an hour this afternoon to ask questions of the e safety commissioner
>> and senator if it helps with those questions obviously will be directed to e safety. I'm sure you'll have many for her when she's here. Um the government trusts the independent regulator which was set up by the parliament. Um we certainly would trust her advice over the big platforms who oppose this ban in
Um Minister, do you have any information at all in relation to the this big very large discrepancy?
>> Well, I don't have anything more to add than what I've just said and what the department information has given to you and e safety will be here um hopefully in the afternoon to address more of your
questions. All right. Well, I've you've taken those questions on notice about the correspondence between the minister's office
>> conclusion of 10 minutes, Senator Henderson. So, I will move the call. when. Um, Senator Walker.
>> Thank you, Chair. Um, I just have a few questions regarding digital inclusion programs for First Nations communities.
I just say while we're waiting, I'm I'm very proud of the work that Mr. Ash and the team have undertaken working with First Nations communities around Australia um to give effect to um socioeconomic target 17 under um the closing gap agreement and they'll be able to take you through more detail on
>> Thank you. So, the minister announced last year that additional remote communities will receive free community Wi-Fi through the 20 million First Nations community Wi-Fi program. How many communities are we expecting to
>> Thank you, Senator. Jason Ashford, assistant secretary, digital inclusion and deployment branch. Um the minister announced 52 communities across Australia will be receiving um additional free Wi-Fi services.
How are contract negotiations going with that at the moment? And when when are we expecting these locations to be announced?
>> Um, thank you. Yes. Um, contract negotiations are going well. Um, um, I can probably reveal that there are six providers that we're contracting with to provide those services and most of those contracts are um, advancing well and should be in place shortly. Um, once those contracts in place, I expect announcement can be made about those communities. their communities just for your information, Senator across Western Australia, Northern Territory, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania.
>> Awesome. And how is the department partnered with local communities in developing and you know rolling out
working closely with states and territories who often have relationships with local communities as well as with the providers who are engaging themselves closely with those communities to make sure that the services being appro provided appropriate and those communities actually want these services in community but also as part of the installation process which will take place going forward. um working closely with communities on the nature of the service, whether those communities want that service 24/7 or limited those hours, what sort of um products and um websites are available through those free Wi-Fi services.
>> Thank you. Thanks, Chair.
>> Uh thanks, Senator Walker. I just have a couple of follow-ups on that. Um are you able to elaborate on how this program will assist to um meet our closing the gap initiatives or at least goals?
>> Thank you. Yes. Um as I spoke at the last um uh hearing m chair um the gap is quite large and some of the data we're seeing shows particularly in remote and very remote Australia that that gap um shows there's quite a discrepancy between what um Australians living in cities and even what first nations Australians living in cities can get compared to um very remote areas. So the target of a lot of this um community Wi-Fi is on um very remote communities where there is no connectivity of in many cases of any form or very limited connectivity and so making sure that they can um access that connectivity participate economically and socially in society more broadly. Um so that's that's the real focus there. It's worth noting too with those 52 communities there are some large communities involved but there are also some homelands and outstations as well. So it's providing a range a connectivity to a wide range of communities.
>> Are you able to elaborate on um what is either planned or or in the works for regional Western Australia?
>> Um at the moment um there is um communities under the NBN community Wi-Fi program which has already been rolled out. There are seven communities in Western Australia, particularly around Fitzroy Crossing, that are receiving free Wi-Fi services there. We're expecting additional communities under this new round of out of the 52 communities to be announced in Western Australia as well, and those announcements will be made shortly.
>> Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, Senator Hanson,