Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 1:06:22 to 1:24:53
Senators scrutinize departmental spending on office plants and airline lounge memberships alongside delays in reporting. The Secretary takes responsibility for property management costs and explains the late submission of answers to questions on notice.
Topics: Government spending, Public service staffing
Speakers: Jim Betts, Hon James McGrath, Hon Sarah Henderson, Unknown Speaker, Nita Green, Cha Jordanoski, Dean Smith, Maree Bridger, Sarah Hanson-Young, Speaker 16, Varun Ghosh
>> I won't take too long. Thank you. Uh, can I just refer you to question notice SQ25-002714? Uh, last financial year the department spent $52,49644 on indoor and outdoor plant hire and servicing. Is that correct?
>> I don't have that the answer to that question notice on hand. Uh we'll ask the relevant people to come to the
>> Good morning, Senator. Sonia Bradley, assistant secretary, integrated services. Uh can I just get you to repeat the quan number just to make sure that I've got the right one here? Uh
certainly uh the question is in relation to expenditure on indoor and outdoor plant hire. The question on notice is SQ25-02714. I just want to confirm that last year the department spent $52,496 and44 on indoor and outdoor plantar servicing.
Are they real plants or are they plastic plants?
>> They're real plants as far as I know.
>> What?
>> I thought an outdoor plant was called a
what? So since going to the question on financial year 20 financial year 223 you spent $41,942.33. The next financial year $47,000 $30062 and then last year $52,49644 and so far in the current financial year $12,000 or so. That's $153,000 in the last couple of years on on plant hire. That's an awful lot of money,
I can't comment on that in terms of its scale. That's the amount that we've
>> Where are the where are the plants located?
>> They're in a a range of our office buildings.
How many plants are there?
>> I'd have to take that one on notice.
>> Are there any in the the minister's
>> I would have to take that one on notice and provide you with that detail. I can
minister doesn't have an office in our >> Parliament House.
>> So, these these plants, they're not in the minister's office and parliament house.
>> We need to check that, but minister doesn't have an office in our building.
Environment Communications. What I just I Minister, we're in the middle of a cost of living crisis. Do you think it's appropriate to be spending $150,000 on
>> Look, I I think the department's given you this the information about the costs as is appropriate. I'm not going to comment on the scale. We can take on notice whether any of those plants are in the minister's office, but I'm not sure that they would be. Um, and we'll continue to report those costs as is appropriate.
>> But but that's not the the question I asked, Minister. With all due respect, >> um, do do you think it's appropriate in a cost of living crisis for the department to be spending over $150,000 of taxpayers money on indoor and outdoor planetire?
>> I think it's appropriate that all of these costs are reported and scrutinized by this committee.
>> So you you think it's okay for the for
the department? Senator, don't put words in my mouth. I said it's appropriate for you to scrutinize those costs and for us to report them so they're transparent.
>> Well, I'm asking whether you you support the expenditure of $150,000 of taxpayers money on on plantire.
>> I've answered your question.
>> I haven't. So you you're so the the Labor government thinks it's appropriate to spend $150,000 on plant hire in in the middle of cost
because I'm the accountable authority here including accountable for this expenditure. I've never received any direction from any minister in relation to plants to be honest. So it's on me. Um we are um as has been reported in the process of consolidating our property footprint in CRA. That'll involve a 40% reduction in leased um floor space. And I think not least given the scrutiny that this is attracted in Senate estimates quite properly. We need to um review our policies to make sure that any expenditure on this kind of thing um would be regarded as acceptable by the
community. Uh minister, will you be giving a direction to the department to following the secretary's answer there? Will the minister be giving a direction to the part the department to reduce spending on indoor and outdoor plant?
>> I don't know on this particular issue. I think the um the minister would be um asking the department to scrutinize all the costs that they um are incurring whether it's plants or on other things and looking for ways to reduce those costs as is you know appropriate given as you say the context of the fiscal environment that we're in.
>> So you would agree we should cut the spending on indoor and
>> outdoor we should certainly scrutinize these costs and reduce them where we can
>> but the costs have been increasing. have gone from 41,942 in the year 2022 to 23 to 52,496. So it looks as if there's sort of absolutely no attention to cost management when it comes to greenwashing the department.
>> That may be a function of new offices opening for instance a new office in Brisbane which reflects the um uh growth in the functions of the department but also the geographic footprint. But your point is well made senators and um I will take this on board as accountable authority and make sure that these expenses are scrutinized and I'm happy to discuss it at future Senate estimates.
>> As someone who knows a little bit about um gardening uh um what what type of plants are they? Are they moneras? Are they jade plants?
>> To be honest, I have no recollection even seeing a plant in our building and I would
>> Are they are they invisible plants? Like um we haven't ordered on these. You haven't seen plants. That worries me. secretary for spending $150,000 on plants and you haven't seen any. Um,
>> are they still alive or they die?
>> I don't know. I'll have to take that on.
reviewed um the pricing structure as a result of a change in contractor and the forecast spending for 2526 is just over $40,000. So we we have been working on uh getting a reduction in the costs of plants. Uh though I do note the other commentary committee and the secretary's uh commentary.
>> Norris uh thank you on that. Just on on another very final line of questioning chair can I ask how many quantis club or virgin loun memberships have been purchased by the department for staff or SCES officers.
>> Okay we'll see if we can get that information. So this relates to um memberships which have been purchased by the department. Okay. >> And is that for virgin as well as quantis? >> Yes. Yes. Okay.
>> Just give me a moment senator and I'll see if I can track that down for you.
>> Just give us one moment, Senator. So you have the right name. We'll >> put that at the front. Thank you. officer. So in relation to your question about um lounges. So I can confirm that as at 30th of November 2025, 45 departmental staff held Quantis Club memberships and 49 departmental staff
>> and they were those ones were purchased by the department. >> Uh is there a certain level at which um have to be at for the membership to be purchased?
it is um so SCS staff are entitled so
>> What's the total cost? >> And that's Could you break that down at the split between Quantis and Virgin?
because I've got 45 with Quantis and I've got 49 with Virgin. So, we can give you that breakdown as a as a follow-up.
>> Cool. And on notice if you could provide a copy of the internal corporate policy applicable to airline memberships. >> Yep. We can do that for you,
>> Senator. Thank you. >> Okay. Just asking we're now 40 50 minutes behind schedule >> already. Ch I endeavor to be very quick. Secretary, look, I just wanted to refer to many answers to questions on notice which have just landed in our inbox at 9:30 this morning. Apparently, these were lodged with the secretariat at 10:30 last night. Well overdue. They were due on the 29th of January. It's very hard for us to do our job when we can't scrutinize responses to questions from the last estimates. Are you able to explain why these are so overdue such that I'm literally reading them now uh in relation to matters that I've actually already asked you about without having all the information?
>> Uh yes. So my understanding is that um as of uh last night there were 10 outstanding um um questions on notice um from the October and December hearings and seven of those were lodged this morning. I do apologize um for late lodgement. There are a variety of reasons for this. Obviously um we need to make sure that um uh we provide drafts um to min the ministerial office and the minister in a timely fashion so that um she and her team are able to scrutinize them. Um we will then obviously rigorously fact check them um if to the extent that there are any amendments. Um sometimes um questions on notice um take a consider considerable period of time to coordinate where they affect multiple parts of the department or um multiple um different agencies. Um but your point is well made senator and I take responsibility for the um late um uh tableabling of those um cons and I intend to have uh quite direct conversation with heads of agency um sometimes the delays arise in agencies outside the department but nonetheless it's their accountability to make sure that the Senate is appropriately serviced so I I take accountability for
blame on the department. I'm keen to understand when batches of questions were delivered in draft to the minister's office because I do understand that it is the practice of some ministers to sit on draft responses with the intention of purposely delaying the delivery of answers to questions on notice. Could you provide on notice in terms of just batches when batches of draft questions were delivered to the minister's office? just the number would be fine.
>> Uh we can we can provide information along those lines. I'd simply point out we had Senate estimates in October, then in December, then in February. Um I have not observed any um systemic delaying of responses in the minister's office at all. Um it's just that those things have tended to um bank up a bit and it is entirely the prerogative of the minister to satisfy herself that those uh answers are appropriate. So, it's on the department to make sure that she and her team have enough time to do that. Um, but we will provide you with that information, Senator.
within this building who are concerned about the facts, and that's what I'm concerned about. So, I've been told that after this particular Optus inquiry hearing, Mr. Chisum was hauled into the minister's office for a dressing down and Mr. Chisum yelled at the minister. She then said that Mr. Betts needed to go. Do you have any understanding of what transpired?
don't have anything further to add than my previous answer to your multiple questions um which is that there was no screaming match um and Mr. Chisum's employment as a matter for the department.
>> No, that's why I'm now coming back and being giving you more details. So,
>> and and we've taken on notice
>> because there's quite a lot of meetings
that happen in and around estimates as you would understand. So, we've taken on notice whether there was a meeting, but I can I can rule out and and I >> I know that you are using parliamentary privilege, but I would just um uh suggest to you that you should consider that I have now on three occasions ruled out the allegations that you are making.
>> So, I'm now putting more detail to you, Minister. So, it's it's so I'm told that Mr. Chisum yelled at the minister and she basically said he needed to go and that's what triggered him being put on extended leave. Is Mr. Betts are you able to confirm whether that's correct because you have given evidence that suggests that that's not correct.
>> It's not correct.
>> It's not correct. >> Right. So do you know anything about the minister saying that Mr. B that that Mr. Chism needed to go at all.
>> Yeah. When you I want to correct Han side because you said that it was me that had to go earlier on.
>> yeah. No, that was a Freudian Freudian slip.
>> It might be an accurate prophecy. Um
>> you might be next, Mr.
>> Yeah. Um so I think I think we've answered these questions to be honest. Um there was after the um Senate estimates hearing which was a you know it was a it was a strongly contested hearing there was a lot of um uh passion in the room uh but there was no conversation in which um uh the minister gave Mr. Chisum a dressing gown or he shouted at her or anything like that following that hearing. That did not happen.
>> You were on leave at the time. Are you able to
>> I was not on leave at the time as as I've explained to you. I came back from leave um before the end of September and my my recollection is that the Senate estimates hearing was on at on the 8th or the 9th of October.
>> Okay. All right. Well, look, if you could provide any further information on notice on that because there are clearly >> people who are concerned about these matters and >> um we would like to get to the bottom of
it please. Well, I think you have got to the bottom of it and it's now on the record in the parliament. And um just to complete the uh picture, um Mr. Chisum's appointment was communicated to me by the attorney general on the 28th of October. Sorry, 28th of January.
>> Uh thank you very much, Secretary. hopeful that that is that is it. Mr. Chard,
>> wonderful. That concludes the communications and arts portfolio. I now call officers from the department in relation to outcome five. Promote an innovative and competitive communication sector through policy development, advice and program delivery so all Australians can realize the full potential of digital technologies and communication services. Program 5.1 digital technologies and communication services. And I now invite questions. But well, actually, let's just give the officials a moment to um come to the come to the table. Um and I'll just put on >> Oh, good. Um the >> senators should ask questions for um closing the gap outcome 17 digital inclusion in this setting in this I think there will be many questions in this session. So I'm just flagging I'll probably go to 10 blocks and just keep >> all right. Thank you very much. I'll hand the call initially to Senator Hanson Young.