Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 5:16:57 to 5:26:01
Senator Pocock raises concerns about reported methane leaks at Chevron's Gorgon facility and the regulatory framework for monitoring such events.
Topics: Emissions reduction, Fossil fuels
Speakers: Andrew Hutchinson, David Pocock, Unknown Speaker, Hon Tim Ayres, Mr Mike Kaiser, Mr Andrew Hutchinson
questions for program 1.2. have it crack on. Um, are you aware of reports that there have been large and unexplained releases of methane from Chevron Chevron's Gorgon facility?
We just wait. >> We'll just wait for the right official. >> Hi Senator Min, head of gas and liquid fuels division. Um I am aware of uh media reports. We are aware of media reports um over the last couple of days about um uh releases from Chevron's Gorgon project. My understanding is that's a matter for the uh the state
>> So you you don't have any details about
>> Not no not within my division. So if I
look at the estimates program 1.2 to reduce Australia's greenhouse gas How on earth is this program going to be successful if we don't know about a reportedly massive um unexplained release of methane over the last year or so? >> Senator Pocock, good afternoon. Andrew Hutchinson, division head of emissions reduction division. So the size of that >> Sure. particular obligations but I suspect that your questions are probably best put to the clean energy regulator uh with regards to any reporting if there's like a particular unplanned or or it's an unplanned event. But I guess my was how how are we going to reduce Australia's greenhouse gas emissions if the federal department doesn't even know >> huge methane emissions. >> Senator, very happy to talk to you about how the policy framework works to reduce methane emissions, but we took your initial question as about there had been some unplanned um venting event. uh who were the notification obligations relating to and my best answer for you is that's probably the clean energy regulator who are appearing later today is my understanding as well as state regulators with regards to your your refrain question just then about how are we going to reduce emissions from these sorts of facilities um obviously the Australian government's got a legislated commitment to get to net zero a series of interim targets and a policy framework that sits under that Chevron clearly given the size is regulated under the safeguard mechanism that applies as as you know Senator um declining baselines that they have to meet over time from a net emissions
>> Okay. Um
>> so and so if there is an event uh over the course of their operations that means their emissions are higher than anticipated then there are a series of controls that apply under the safeguard mechanism that require them to over time um comply with their baseline. But you
just told me a minute ago that it was a state a state issue with the safeguard is federal. So
>> safeguard is federal, senator. That's correct. Um just to be really clear, we originally took your question to be um we're hearing reports of a large um venting event. >> Are you aware of that? Which spoke to us as like a notification piece. So there would be notification obligations that required uh the facility to report to either federal or state regulators. Your second question was about how are we um encouraging those facilities to reduce their emissions over time. The safeguard mechanism is the primary mechanism that relies on their annual reports rather than moment in time reports. And so each year they'll report on their emissions and how they're meeting their declining baselines on a net basis. >> Two things are not inconsistent.
>> Okay. Has to your knowledge has Chevron
have a similar understanding to my colleague here given that we're not the regulators uh under the safeguard mechanism or state based um reg state based legis but you are responsible for
Australia's greenhouse gas emissions.
>> That's correct Senator as I said we administer the safeguard mechanism among other things which relies on annual reporting not um dayby-day reporting that as I said there's a there's different roles that the different agencies play in the Commonwealth.
So, are you aware of a report from Chevron or
>> Well, I'm aware of the media reporting,
>> but not
>> if they if they are obliged to report an event, it would likely be to the Clean Energy Regulator, which is a different agency from those officials sitting before you, Senator.
>> And you don't you don't talk to them about this stuff.
>> So, Senator, there's a range of things we talk to them about on a daily basis. I haven't personally spoken to them about this.
>> Sure. Has anyone here? >> Anyone know if Chevron have actually reported this to?
>> Well, the clean energy regulator appears at the committee >> later in the schedule. You could perhaps ask them.
>> I guess I just find it
>> they they are the they are the regulator in this space. We are primarily a policy agency. Um there's a whole range of regulators in the portfolio family uh if you want to call it that which have different responsibilities. as has been suggested. This may be a question for the clean energy regulator.
>> Sure. And I'll come back for them. I guess I just find it I don't know like you look at what's happening with climate um at the moment and looking at what data desk are estimating um there could have been around 16,000 tons of methane leaked into the that's the impact over 20 years of the equivalent of putting more than half a million additional cars on the road.
>> So Senator the pardon apolog
I come to ask about outcome 1.2 to reduce Australia's greenhouse gas emissions and you don't even know if
>> Senator there's a a system in place for companies and facilities that are regulated under these legislation to do things like annual reporting for their annual obligations which we can talk to. There's obviously a system for them to notify the relevant regulators under different legislation as appropriate. um really encourage you to ask the cler about whether they have been notified yet. The point that I would choose to make here about the scope and scale of these proposed emissions is we understand that the um reporting on this uh the media reporting on this emission is probably drawing on what we would call top down measurement systems. So things like satellites, flyovers, um remote observations of methane. um that that is a really useful but extensive system of technologies for understanding where leaks might be occurring. It's much more problematic to use them for really accurate measurement of how much methane has been released on any particular event. Um there are many hundreds of different kinds of sensors mounted on many different kinds of platforms and they use lots of different methodologies in terms of how they calculate things. So that's why we've got the expert panel on methane emissions reductions to look into these
technologies. But M. Hutcherson, as you would know better than most, here in Australia, we are woefully behind when it comes to everything outside of underground mining and methane measurement. Like we're we're way behind. Um, and so but that's that's a different a different issue. But it seems to me all the experts are saying listen from the satellite imagery from the flyovers. This is a huge event and DQ isn't even isn't even aware of it apart from media reporting. So I
wouldn't characterize us as being woefully behind Senator in terms of how we measure and manage methane in this country as a country. >> We actually have some of the most sophisticated methods globally for accurately measuring methane including under ingers. Method 2 is globally recognized as one of the most stringent ways you can get accurate repeatable measurements of methane. Um we're really interested in these top down ways of measuring that we assume these media reports are based on and that's why we've got former chief scientist Kathy Foley heading up a panel of experts to look into how these different technologies could be used to augment and improve our systems over time. It is a vast array of technologies and approaches. They are needing to spend two and a half years in total looking at that. We're now about 9 months away. I believe from their final report and they've just released an interim report on it. I would definitely commend you that piece of research to look into whether these systems are useful for quantifying methane leaks.