Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 5:26:41 to 5:33:54
The ABC is questioned regarding reports of fixers or freelance journalists in Gaza allegedly associated with Hamas, including the organization's efforts to verify these claims with the IDF.
Topics: National security, Israel, International law
Speakers: Senator The Hon Sarah Henderson, Gavin Fang, Hugh Marks, Senator Lidia Thorpe, Senator Varun Ghosh
Thank you very much. I'll be very keen to look at um uh yeah, look at that detailed breakdown, please. Uh look, I want to go to the issue of the reports of uh a number of journalists working in the Middle East who subsequent subsequently were discovered to be operatives or associated with Hamas. You're you're familiar with that issue, Mr. Marks?
Well, I don't know about number of journalists, Senator. I think there was um I think a cameraman, I think, wasn't it, Mr. Fang or a fixer who I I think did some work for the ABC? I mean you probably know the detail better than I do.
Sure. Could you just Whatever the question is, Senator, happy to answer it.
My question is uh could you please give us information about this matter, including uh whether the ABC has hired anyone who's subsequently been identified as being someone who's a member of Hamas or an operative or associated with Hamas?
Sure. So I think you're referring to a story that was um pinpointing um some work that had been done by the Committee for the Protection of Journalists. It's an international organisation very well respected, who um maintains a list of journalists that have been killed in conflicts around the world, including uh in the Middle East. Um there was one particular item which made an allegation about a fixer that used to work for the ABC. I'd have to get you the exact year, but it was some years ago, who was um who was killed uh in Gaza. Um the Committee for the Protection of Journalists uh has not removed that person from their list of journalists that have been killed, so their evidence their view is that person was a legitimate journalist. Um we have attempted to get some clarification from the IDF about their position on this, and as yet they have not provided us with any evidence to suggest otherwise. Um for the best of our knowledge uh and for the work that we have done and uh that the Committee for the Protection of Journalists has done, um that person was a legitimate journalist that was tragically killed.
And what evidence do you have to support that given given uh this person and was on an IDF list of uh people associated with Hamas?
Well, I don't think it's uh incumbent on us to prove that the person are negative in that sense, Senator. The internationally recognised list of of that that many media organizations refer to around this uh who maintain a high level of credibility around this matter, um, still continue to list that person as a journalist. We have asked for further evidence from the IDF, and until we are able to find something that goes to the veracity of that claim, um I don't think it's incumbent on us to make a decision to declare that that person was a member of Hamas.
Well, look, I'm it's incumbent on you to ensure that you're not hiring journalists who work. For a terrorist organisation, Mr. Fang. So this person, this person has been identified as a fighter in the Hamas military wing, Mr Rashdi al-Saraj. Have you investigated that at all?
Well, as I said, Senator, that's not the information that we have been able to ascertain. And until we hear otherwise, I think the he remains a person listed as a journalist. We, of course, do uh due diligence around who we work with. The person you're referring to had worked with a number of different media organizations. To the best of our knowledge, he's a legitimate journalist and fixer, and you know, he was he was killed.
Okay, so have you um received the question? I have got some further questions about this. Fang, I I'm going to raise serious concerns about this, and to you, Mr. Marks. This person has been identified as a fighter in the Hamas military wing. I appreciate you didn't know that at the time, and I appreciate that this person is deceased. Have you ascertained whether uh you have hired or utilised any other journalists in your coverage in the Middle East who is connected with Hamas?
I'm sorry, Senator, you're acting or your ex you're providing information which I do not have. The we have not been given uh evidence to suggest that that person that was killed was a member of the Hamas military wing. There have been claims made, but we have to uh operate on a higher evidentiary basis than that.
Well, well, hang on. There's been a report and I there's been a a number of reports and a number of significant reports about this. My question is have you investigated this matter? So uh and I just refer to an article in the Australian ABC's man in Hamas exposed as being part of IDF's list of terrorists. A Gaza-based journalist, I'm reading the first paragraph, who freelanced for the ABC and was remembered in Australia as an amazing professional, is among 170 media works, media workers killed in Gaza since October 7, 2023, who has who have been accused of being Hamas terrorists after an extensive Israeli defence forces investigation.
So, Senator, as I said, we have spoken we have asked the IDF to provide us with evidence of that matter, and we have not been provided with evidence.
Okay. To assure us. That's what I was asking about. Have you investigated that?
Absolutely, yes. We have to do that.
Okay, good. That's what I was asking. So you actually have sought that information.
Absolutely.
All right. And so what was the nature of your discussions with the IDF in relation to this particular individual?
Um they weren't um uh I haven't done that directly. I understand that our international team have done that, um, but they have gone seeking to find out the nature of the claims around this particular person because it's important for us to know uh the veracity of of that allegation, but we have not been provided with any evidence of that at this time.
Okay.
Thank you, Senator Hemster.
Can I just ask for that correspondence, please, on notice and any other inquiries you've made in relation to this. So just I know it'd be very good.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can ask for that on notice, but I need to move the call on the shelf here.
Sure, Chief.
Um, Islamophobia, then I'll leave the room while that conversation happens because it's actually disgustingly violent as well.