Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 6:03:42 to 6:10:44
Discussion regarding the level of verification required by the ABC to act on IDF claims about Gaza-based stringers and the use of independent verification lenses.
Topics: National security, Integrity
Speakers: Senator The Hon Sarah Henderson, Gavin Fang, Hugh Marks, Senator Varun Ghosh, Senator Nita Green
Marks, I'm getting very confusing evidence here. On one stage and one you've just told me, oh well, that's just one perspective, we don't know, we can't verify. And yet, in relation to uh the 170 journalists on this list, Mr. Fang has just told me and told this committee that you've removed a range of stories produced by or in relation to these journalists.
I might have that might have been misinterpreted. We have taken action around the change in the list that the Committee for the Protection of Journalists made. They removed 19 people from their list, and those are the things that we have corrected. I think what you're talking about is a separate claim from the IDF about a number of other people that the the Committee for the Protection of Journalists has acted on 19 names, not the other names that the IDF might have may or may not have indicated.
So in relation to the three that I have named, and I'll table this. Uh Mr. Al-Saraj, um Al Sharif, and another one, uh Karim Shabbat. Uh you have published articles praising at the very least one of those persons. Have and I've just cited that particular article.
And for clarity, Senator, which list are those three people on?
They're on the IDF list.
They're on the IDF list, correct. Okay.
So I'm talking about there's a the the article Anas Al-Sharif. Right. He has been identified as a Hamas operative. There's an article that you have published which is still online speaking about him in very favourable terms. So the the Have you reviewed have you reviewed this work, these articles, which praise journalists that have subsequently found to be Hamas terrorists?
So Senator, the you're using the terminology that they have been found to be Hamas terrorists. We're relying on, and we we are working on the the evident treatment that the Committee for the Protection of Journalists provides and our own work where we can attribute, which we can attribute towards these people. The the fact that the IDF has made a claim about a number of other people does not necessarily mean that we have yet been able to or have verified that those people are not uh sorry, uh Hamas terrorists. So you are referencing the IDF list and I'm speaking about the committee.
So you're not you're not believing the IDF, is that is that what we can take out of this? No, I'm not sure. I mean the IDF has conducted investigations over many, many months. This has been published recently, but this is the result of very extensive work by one of our closest allies. Uh they have produced this list, and are you saying that you are not going to take this list seriously?
No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm not making a I'm not making a claim about the IDF in any way. I'm saying that as you would expect, we would take an independent lens to verification and to ensuring that the people that we have worked with are not on some of those lists. Um it's about the level of verification that we want to do to check in these things.
And so you've, as I say, you said before that you've that you've contacted or written to the IDF, have you?
Um I'd have to check on the way that the contact was made. I know we have spoken to the IDF and have received some feedback from them, but we have not been provided with anything from them that to date is evidence of the claim that the fixer that we worked with was a member of Hamas, and we still remain um uh utilising the Committee for the Protection of Journalists list.
Mr. Fang, the IDF, in relation to this stringer that you hired, the IDF has their Hamas ID card. The fact that you're not regarding seriously this work is deeply concerning. Have you checked with on this list of 170 journalists whether you have hired any other journalists at all on this list?
I'd have to take a notice and let you know what we can provide on the other names, but as to the work that's been done around that particular person. I mean, as I've said, we haven't seen any evidence as yet provided that would um move us to that to make that classification.
I mean that's outrageous, Mr. Fang. It's right here. This is the work of the defence force of one of our closest allies of Israel. They this their work includes the fact that Mr. Al Sarraj has a Hamas ID card. And you don't think that's sufficient evidence.
Senator Weenan.
You haven't you're just been completely disregarding of the fact that the ABC Prima Facy, based on this evidence, has been hiring Hamas terrorists. Now I'm not saying you were aware of that at the time. But now that you are aware of it, my concern is that you are completely disregarding this evidence.
No, I don't think that's I don't think that's what we're doing, Senator. I mean, we we have asked to find out more information. And as yet, we haven't been provided with information that allows us to make that determination.
Mr. Mr. Marks, I would say to you that Mr. Fang is being completely flippant in relation to this matter. There's very, very serious and significant evidence in relation to the ABC stringer. That he was someone the ABC hired who was a Hamas terrorist. And and the fact that you are being so flippant about the very significant evidence uncovered by the IDF is deeply concerning Mr. Fang.
I don't think Mr. Fang's being flippant at all, Senator. I think he's taking the matter very seriously. And again, as he said, we have written.
No, he hasn't, Mr. Marks. He has said he has basically said that he doesn't f find the evidence is compelling enough.
Sorry, Minister, did you want to raise a point of order?
I just was wondering if the witnesses could finish their answer before being interrupted. It might help.
Look, I I didn't necessarily think that Mr. Marks was continuing an answer. But if you were, Mr. Marks, would you like to finish? Would you like to finish it then and I'll come back to Senator Henson?
No, I I I think the the categorisation of Mr. Fang as flippant is incorrect. I think he takes it very seriously. And we are looking to ensure that we have verifiable information that we are believe we can act on. Now obviously allegations have been made, and that has caused us to make inquiry. When we get the result of that inquiry, then we will be prepared to take action. I think that's actually taking it very seriously rather than flippantly, Senator.