Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 2:26:51 to 2:37:29
The discussion shifts to NBN's partnership with Amazon's Project Kuiper and the competitive landscape against Starlink. Senators question the procurement process and the feasibility of the 2027 rollout timeline for LEO satellite services.
Topics: Infrastructure, Procurement
Speakers: Gavin Williams, Senator Sarah Henderson, Speaker 10, Unknown Speaker
Uh can you update me on the transition to uh the Amazon Leo Sat from Sky Master?
>> Sure. Gav, do you want to take that one?
>> Yeah. Um the programs I' probably characterize a program in two parts. There's the uh piece of the program that involves us working with retailers to build uh a product that we can sell and there's the part of the program um in uh uh Amazon's world which is about launching rockets and getting rockets into space. Um in the first part we've uh since we were last um here we've concluded our um initial product consultation with uh with retailers and stakeholders. Um and that incorporated the settings for the um uh the product design uh for the NBN satellite product with Amazon Leo. Um and it included uh transitional arrangements for existing Sky Master customers. um uh some operational arrangements that we'd be entering into with um uh with retailers and the like. Now, clearly it's a a really strong imperative that we get that transition right. So, um that consultation was done [clears throat] carefully not just with retailers but with key stakeholders in regional Australia and I'm pleased that we were able to conclude that consultation uh recently. right now [clears throat] in terms of the product development.
>> Sorry, I just want to step back here because so you've entered into an agreement with Amazon in July 2025, >> Uh that was announced in August 2025. So the service is intending to reach more than 300,000 eligible premises to ultimately replace Sky Master. How long is it going to take for the new satellite to be available?
>> Well, it's not it's not a single satellite. So, what we'll be utilizing a >> a constellation >> um yeah, so the there's two parts to that um answer. One is building a product that retailers can sell and the other part is having a constellation um that uh Amazon has covering the nation. So um if I just conclude my my comments about the product development, we're in the process now of um actually installing production terminals so we can achieve um what we've already signaled to industry as a tech trial commencing um this side of Christmas. And um uh we'll be uh we've indicated to industry that we'll be um triing and and uh commencing uh production services, commercial [clears throat] services in uh in 2027. Now that part was and always will be a um a function of uh Amazon being able to get satellites in the air. Now it's true that um well Amazon have announced that they've now got a thousand satellites um produced
>> but they're not in the sky. >> No. Well, that's a problem, isn't it?
>> Well, um so Amazon have got they've launched about 400.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and uh you know, they've publicly announced launches uh imminent launches with um heavy lift vehicles um such as the
>> and Starlink has got about 10,000 or so satellites in the sky.
>> That's right. Yeah.
>> So, how are you going to be able to compete? My understanding is that there is an up to twoyear de delay to book a rocket to get the satellite into space.
>> Well, NBN doesn't book um Amazon Amazon. Yes,
>> Amazon is encountering massive issues trying to get their satellites in the sky. >> So, how can you possibly suggest that this is going to be ready by 2027? Uh
what I've said is that we we um uh we we um we'll commence our services at this stage. We're looking at commencing trials and commercial services in uh calendar 27 and the roll out which we've indicated through our consultation with industry will be progressively from uh will move progressively from the southern part of the continent to the north and senator um if you know if we take a step back
>> but but sorry Mr. Williams, the satellites aren't in the sky. They're nowhere near being ready. And you're suggesting that the roll out can start from 2027. Why would any Australian look to move on to your LEOSAT service rather than Starlink, which is very advanced and already providing a brilliant service to thousands of Australians. Well, what
what uh Sky Master customers and prospective customers can take uh comfort in is that we have consulted on a product. We are building a product that will be available um progressively from the southern part of the continent through to the northern part of the continent. We will not be launching a product um you perhaps I better explain the the way that the product would be rolled out is um progressively from the south to the north of the continent. So it's not a you know you need uh you need satellites in space for um for two reasons. One is to get coverage and one is to get depth of coverage. >> That's right. So we'll be um we plan to launch from uh Tasmania progressively north and we will launch at a point where we have um sufficient coverage and sufficient depth of coverage to to give us confidence that we can offer a great service for Australians who in the
>> let's cut to the chase here. you cannot possibly hope to offer a great service based on the current situation with Amazon satellites. Uh knowing the the lag time in launching those satellites, I can I put to you that it's it is just not tenable that this will be ready by 2027, this service to properly offer Australians. Miss Winnie, can I go back to you?
Senator I mean you know we would have a different view on that.
>> Well I miss Winnie well before you were the CEO Mr. Williams and I have been talking about >> uh Sky Muster and the deficiencies with Sky Master and the advantages that Starlink presented. Starlink is a very now very sophisticated service that many thousands of
>> Australian they're a global platform and as you know through Yuomo they are you know an integrated full stack. So, you know, they're a formidable competitor. Um, I think
>> So, why didn't the Australian government contract with Starlink rather than Amazon? Because Amazon's got 400 satellites in the air, can't do the job for a continent the size of Australia. Uh, Starlink has 10,000 satellites and is able to offer full coverage right
now. And Senator, as you're aware, we did go through uh thorough uh due diligence and RFP around that. And without going into the details, Amazon was chosen for very good reasons. Now,
>> what were those reasons? Given it cannot provide the service at the moment.
>> No c that's not correct. We will be in test in the December of this year. So, we will be in Tasmania in test. we have already been able to again provide the antennas um actually test the solution already test on our production uh systems as well. So again we have every confidence with Amazon uh they are again they will release first I'm not sure if you know this in the US, Canada, Germany, France uh the UK and Argentina they'll go live first and then Australia will go to the commercial launch. So again, you know, Amazon are incredibly committed to this as you can imagine. They are also a global integrated player. Um they've also made decisions around UMO in the US around uh some of the access into uh other um businesses as well. And so they're heavily committed in terms of uh in terms of the Australian footprint. Senator, we don't
need 10,000 just to be clear, we don't
need 10,000 satellites to work in Australia. The number Gav is
>> 20 3200 is the constellation size for the Amazon uh constellation the initial the initial >> and we start no Amazon have announced that the constellation that they are building to the initial constellation is 3200 odd satellites >> so they've announced I don't have the the numbers
>> when will they get 3200 satellites into the sky
>> well I don't have the announcements that they've made around the uh the number of um launches that they've they've got committed but you're right to say that The program requires a significant launch manifest by Amazon. Um, and there's a a few launches um uh underneath that imperative includes getting some launch uh heavy launch vehicles um in the sky such as the Aran Spas 64 which is scheduled for a launch in November. Um the uh the ULA Vulcan uh Centaur is um and and what what you'll see with these heavy lift vehicles is the uh the Aryan SPASS uh vehicle can carry 36 satellites uh at each launch. The Vulcan Centaur would have um uh about 45 satellites. So the uh the 14 missions that Amazon have um currently undertaken.
>> Sorry, I'm starting to giggle because I appreciate that Amazon has great aspirations to fill the sky full of satellites, but the fact is they're not in the sky. Australians are looking to MBN as an alternative to Sky Master. But why would any Australian sign up to the MBN for satellite services when Miss Winnie the best you can do currently is offer a testing capability in Tasmania by the end of the year. So when will you be able to to cover the continent with LEOST services which are equivalent to Starink? When will that happen? So,
Senator, I mean, again, we've been consistent with this commentary that we would be in test in December of 2026 and we would go live in 2027. Senator, I really can't give you dates. As you rightly point out, we are reliant.
>> It's very important that we have some understanding.