Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 1:02:33 to 1:14:44
Senators question the department regarding staff secondments to the Australian National University and potential conflicts of interest.
Topics: Integrity, Public service staffing
Speakers: Senator Paul Scarr, Tony Cook, Unknown Speaker, Jasmina Joldic, Speaker 2
>> thank you. Thank you, Chair. Uh, Miss Lo, just following on from Senator Roberts questions, uh, can I ask you to take on notice, uh, any information you can provide us in terms of work that the department's done in relation to this placement issue? So this placement issue in terms of training places being found for doctors was raised with me by one of uh Queensland's faculties um by vice chancellor actually when I raised uh an example of a wonderful wonderful young woman um from a refugee background who had the marks to study medicine and was passionate about becoming a doctor. so she could help women in her own community. Uh and it was just heartbreaking that you know I approached chancellors and did whatever I could. It was just heartbreaking she couldn't find a place. I have a particular view. We should be especially in the Pacific region, we should be assisting our Pacific neighbors to train people to be doctors through the Pacific. Uh as opposed to being so desperate to bring doctors from other parts of the world who can't afford to lose them to be frank. Uh so I think we need to be better as a country in this regard. So I'm keen to see any information you can provide uh in relation to the uh analysis on this placement issue. Uh any correspondence with different states regarding um regarding how we resolve this issue or attempts to resolve this issue. Uh I'm certainly happy to to raise it with state counterparts in Queensland because I think it's I think it's a real issue. I mean, we got a Pacific neighbor, 10 million people up in Papa Newu Guinea, we got Fiji, we've got other countries that desperately need medical staff and and they should be trained in Australia. We should have the capacity to train um the medical profession in our region to help our Pacific family.
>> Senator, um thank you. We happy to look into that, but as a fellow Queenslander and someone who spend a lot of time in Queensland Health, that certainly is the remit of the state and territory governments. So the placements are contracts basically between the universities and the uh health local health and hospital services. So it would be helpful if you raise it with your counterparts in Queensland.
I'm with them on the weekend. I'll raise it with them then. But um anything you've got in terms of in terms of the issue because I I really want to get my head around it >> um to try and address it. Um so I want to ask some questions in relation to the s uh succumbment of Miss Karen Sandicok is it to au >> uh from the department? Uh has she returned from her succ?
>> Uh off the top of my head I don't know. >> Since April this year. >> April this year. And she'll she will return um at the end of January next
>> End of January next year. So that's already set.
>> That's right. And she's on a period she'll be on period leave during January. So I think she actually finishes A&U towards the end of the
so I understand I wasn't here at June estimates but I understand at June estimates uh the department advised that her comment was for professional development. >> Mhm. Whilst ANU I understand has described her work as being within its education portfolio. Uh what was she what is what's her what are her responsibilities in terms of her succumbment?
>> Uh a you will be able to help you more than we can help you on that. Senator we outlined our expectations in relation to Mr. Sandicott she got a letter from me in relation to that particularly about issues around conflict of interest and things like that but I don't know whether her role has changed in that time with au but au will be with you with us soon
>> so you don't have visibility over that in into so she's still employed by the department
>> she's she's not employed by she's a she's paid for by um au is my understanding yep
>> so is she on leave or s comment uh
>> sorry senator that's little detail I'll
Do you understand the point I'm making?
>> Yep. Yep. >> But no, we wouldn't. She's off. She's working for A&U. Uh we are deliberately not interacting with her to ensure that there's no issues around conflict of interest. She doesn't have access to any of the email systems of the department. It's a deliberate decision for for us in relation to that.
>> Okay. So from your perspective, she's absolutely at arms length.
>> She's absolutely at arms length.
>> Okay. When's the last time you saw her?
>> I saw her at an AU event that I was at. >> Okay. So, I last saw her at the um opening I think of the the hall that got hailed out. I can't remember, >> but I've had no interaction or engagement with her uh in relation to her work matter at all since she's left the department.
>> So, secretary, how do you then uh become satisfied if you if you've got no visibility with respect to what she's doing now? How do you become satisfied that um the assistance she's giving to au uh isn't potentially involving a conflict in terms of knowledge say she's acquired and I'm asking this theoretically? >> In terms of knowledge she's acquired through her position in the department. Do you understand what I mean?
>> I do. Uh but just because someone's worked for a department doesn't mean I'm going to say they can't work for anyone in the agency or go work for a state or any of those sort of things. Senator, so we have given clear guidance to Miss Sandison around conflict of interest matters, what she's able to do and what she's not able to do. We've ensured she has no access to the email systems of the department. Uh I know Miss Endeott as a professional. Uh she's been with the department for many years. I have no doubt of her integrity and I have no doubt that she will ensure that she's doing everything that she's required to do as we outlined to her when she left the department to take up this work at A&U.
>> And I'm not questioning that. No, I get that. It's a question of perceptions as much as anything as you appreciate respect to conflict.
>> Yes, at all.
>> So, can you advise us whether or not she had a role in providing advice to ANU on its dealings with the Department of Education or Ache or TEXA?
>> Uh, that's not my understanding of her role, Senator, more broadly. So, my I'd have to ask her directly. My answer to that would be no.
>> Is there anything you can add? >> No. >> Okay. Is that is that something which when you had that initial discussion with her about what she should or shouldn't do, is that something which would fall in the domain of things she should not do and was told not to do.
>> That would be in that domain. And in fact, it's it's the letter is there's a written letter being very clear to her about conflict of interest in relation to her engagement at au.
>> Okay. Was a copy of that letter asked during last estimates?
>> I don't think so, Senator.
>> Okay. Can I just put that on Sure. >> on notice if you could reflect that and it might be >> u there might be a way in which you can provide that letter in a way that um meets everyone's requirements, but it would probably provide some additional comfort
>> and [clears throat] it's a letter that we would give.
>> You don't have the letter here now, do
>> No, S. It's a letter that we would give to anyone who would be taking a taking a comment out of the department for a particular point in time or they may may work in an area that interfaces with the department. It's a standard expectation of all of our staff.
so we talked about how if she was giving advice to ANU on its dealings with the Department of Education, Ache or TEXA, whether or not that would fall within the domain of conflicted activity, if I can put it that way. And secretary, you you thought it would. That's correct.
>> Yeah. I don't I don't Yeah, I just don't know what that advice would be to be honest with you, Senator.
uh do you know whether or not she participated in preparing a missionbased compact or negotiations concerning Commonwealth funding?
>> No, Senator, I don't.
>> You don't. Would that fall within the domain of conflicted? Not necessarily
because a lot of that information is factual information about number of students that are at the university, what the university's direction might be. Uh I don't see why that would be a conflict of interest at all.
>> Okay. So presumably in terms of preparation of the letter, you must have given some thought with respect to potential conflicts of interest that might arise from the secment. Is that correct?
>> Uh I'm sure my team would have Sander. I
>> and those and that's reflected in the letter presumably in terms of outline.
>> I can't remember what's in the letter. This is April we're talking about. Once I get the letter in front of me, I can help with these questions.
>> and what's her role going to be when she comes back?
>> She's moving into the schools area of
specificity you can give us?
>> I should know. The schools group aren't >> Oh, she's going to early childhood. Even worse. Sorry. She's going to early childhood. Send her.
>> Sorry. Where's she going?
>> She's going to the early childhood group, not the schools group. I'm sorry. The person from early childhood is going to the schools group. She's going to the early childhood group. That group would be looking at things like worker retention payment and uh preschool reform agreements uh and policy more
Do you do you want to rotate the call? Do you chair or sorry I thought you were
I thought you were finishing. So
>> no no I'm I'm I'm thinking
>> it's okay. [laughter] We're a bit overdue but you have the call until you need it.
so when she comes back she won't have anything to do with decisions relating to and you is that correct? Do you know whether or not she was involved in terms of advising AU on its Shandong University partnership?
>> Sorry, which partner said it, sir?
>> Uh, do you know whether or not she was involved in advising AU on its Shandong University partnership?
>> No, Sandra. I don't know.
>> You don't know?
>> I don't know. And I shouldn't know.
>> And you shouldn't. You're saying you
shouldn't know. I shouldn't know because we have deliberately ensured that there is separation between the department and
>> Okay. So when she just confirming when she returns to the department, she won't have any responsibility with respect to anything dealing with AU.
>> That's correct. And we've we've publicly announced that to the department. She returns as a first assistant secretary in the early childhood group. and and
as part of that she she'll be required not to have any discussions with au even if it isn't part of her formal responsibilities. Do you understand what I mean
>> again? So we would do that in terms of that an updated conflict of interest form. Miss Sandicott would no doubt update her conflict of interest form in relation to her employment as a number of my staff do. I then write to my staff and outline to them what they're required to do in relation to that.
>> Okay.
>> So, a normal expectation for me in a letter back to Miss Stand when she returns is that she shouldn't be engaged in activities related to A&U, even if it's in her job in early childhood.
>> And and sorry, I've got to ask this. I'm >> Nothing nothing's come to your attention. >> In terms of any potential >> breach of of those expectations. questions. >> Keep going.