Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee, , 44:30 to 59:38
Discussion shifts to the implementation of mission-based compacts and the importance of explicitly including research within ATEC's core mission.
Topics: Education, Agricultural research and levies
Speakers: Luke Sheehy, Mehreen Faruqi, Marielle Smith
>> You have also noted in your submission that the bill potentially positions Ache as a quasi regulator. uh and it does seem that there is quite a bit of lack of clarity in terms of stewardship and regulation. Um so how do you think that could be fixed in the bill?
>> I think the most important aspect that does need looking at uh where where the ATCH risks being more a regulator than a steward for our sector is the development of the missionbased compacts. It looks on the surface that where a university might not reach an agreement with a future A tech that the default position is punitive and that reads more like a regulatory intervention than it does as stewardship. We want a tech to get to know our sector to nurture our sector to ensure our sector through missionbased compacts are delivering for our students are delivering for our country and the communities that they serve. not penalized because there might be a a an inability to get an agreement at a certain period of time. University autonomy, the role of universities, the missions that are baked into their state legislations and their enabling acts are really important and we want the ATH and universities to to collaborate on their missionbased compacts, not see it as a regulatory intervention. So there can be some very modest but important improvements made to that part of the
bill. You also said that um you would prefer some guard rails around missionbased compacts. Is that having parliamentary oversight? Is that what you're referring to there?
>> Uh I think it's important that in the development of those that that that is not punitive in nature. So the ATH it is just um come arrive to a negotiation with the ATH and it's what you see is what you get. It should be a genuine conversation about alignment of mission and ensuring that our universities are well supported through funding settings and the number of students that they're allocated, their research mission, their needs for infrastructure, all of those things. The way that the bill reads currently, it looks somewhat punitive. We have to respect institutional autonomy and ensure that the ATC's not coming in regulatory oversight, but it is a collaborative in the spirit of stewardship.
you mentioned that um about resources and staffing of a tech. I mean I'm very concerned about how the resources are going to be shared between the department and a tech as well and whether there will actually be more staff provided um to a tech but you mentioned commissioners and there need to be more commissioners. Do you have a view on how many and what their expertise should be?
>> Um thanks Senator. Look, that is that's a really important I think threshold issue for all universities and I think nearly every university group and individual universities has referenced that three commissioners is is inadequate. If you think about the remitt of an ache over time, tertiary harmonization, ensuring equity in the growth of our system, first nations and indigenous knowledges at the heart of our system, growing our system, infrastructure needs, um you know, working between both systems, making the job ready graduate system fairer or replacing it for that matter. It risks only having those three commissioners. It would risk the expertise and we would like to see more. um how many that really is a matter for for the future chief commissioner but we would like to see the ability for a few more to be in the system be it four to seven has been um argued by others in the sector we haven't put a specific number to that but we just remind the senate of the broad remit that the ache will have and the growing remitt that will have over time >> I reflect a little bit on the alternative models or or better models for that matter and we've referenced this in our submission the productivity commission has the capacity to take on temporary commissioners for work uh within its remit. That is another model that that we think that the parliament should look at in terms of the legislation before it.
>> Um I just want to come to research because for me that's a really big concern that a tech does not have any specific um or explicit focus on research. um do you think it should and how and where do you think that focus should be in the objectives and in other places as well?
>> I did have some nice words about this in my opening statement so I encourage you to read it after this hearing but nonetheless research is part of our core mission research and development and of course worldclass teaching and learning. They are the two core missions of university. to um areas in which we you know excel in the Australian system and we want to see um continue to excel and we eagerly await the the the release of the strategic examination of research and development um we hope it would be this week but certainly we haven't seen it yet but nonetheless senator um research as a core part of what makes up the character of the university we think it's important that the ache has a role in stewardship but again to my point on missionbased compacts not a punitive regulatory intervention but a capacity to steward you know research and support universities with their mission. Uh universities do an enormous amount of research to contribute to the overall overall R&D effort in this country and we cross subsidize that through international student revenues and other revenues. It's really important that the Ache in stewarding this sector into the future um has the capacity to look at
Um just coming to the objectives um of the bill um and um you know the national education the national tertiary education objective in particular much concern have has been raised with me and I can see that as well that it has very narrow scope it doesn't explicitly talk about what the mission of the universities is I mean in in my view the way the government is moving universities are just becoming job factories um in a way um and and professor Andrew Nort norton nu others have said that it should be expanded and we heard earlier from u uh professor williams that it should have it should include academic freedom as part of that objective. Would you agree that that is really important to clearly state what the mission public mission of our
universities is? Uh Senator the tertiary policy objective was a recommendation in the university's accord and the university sector and representatives including myself worked through the ministerial reference group on a variety of issues. There are 47 recommendations in the universities accord final report and they're 407 pages. So the tertiary objective was one of our considerations at universities Australia board and plenary level. We haven't focused a lot on it. You can imagine that our priorities are around replacing JRG and ensuring financial viability for our university sector particularly our wonderful universities in regional Australia uh and and the out of suburban growth corridors of our our community so we can serve our mission and serve the objective of more people coming to university which is good for Australia. I think it's really important that there's broad consensus on on what is is is finally put into the tertiary objective. I note that academic freedom and freedom of expression on university campuses is is is enshrined into the university higher education standards framework um and also a reference to university autonomy and other things including academic freedom are referenced in other pieces of legislation but I think it is important that those principles are outlined in a tertiary policy objective so I do think there might be an opportunity to get more consensus on that objective it's not a threshold issue for universities Australia in so far as this bill, but it is something that we would consider and and would like to work with the government on into the future.
>> Um, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ch. Thanks, Chair.
>> Um, thank you, Senator Faruqi. Um, and thank you for your evidence so far. Um, you've already canvased in uh some of your answers to Senator Furiki's questions, the role you see the Ache playing in the future, but I just wanted to give you an opportunity to expand on that and where you see its impact being. Um and also to understand you know when it comes to things like managing the managed growth reforms for domestic and international students what you see its role being and how that may interact with the department as well.
>> Yeah. One of the reasons I think universities across the Australian context and and different missions, different contexts and policy um experts from the tertiary education sector and the NTEU are supportive of the idea of an A tech and stewardship is because it takes the political cycle out of funding and policy and regulatory settings in higher education, vocational education. Job ready graduates is a prime example. the the the the Labour Party opposed job ready graduates in 2020 and said that they would look at it through the universities accord said it was a failed policy. That was two years ago and we're still dealing with job ready graduates. Why? Because the political cycle intervenes. So to be very important that we have policy settings that remove the interventions, the temporary nature of putting in place policies and regulations for our sector. regulation is an a significant impost on the university sector. I would much rather see student fees that come through hex into our system go to to excellent teaching and learning and research, not for us to employ people to write reports. So there's a whole range of things that I think the ATH can do, but the the freedom and the long-term vision outside of the political cycle is why we're supportive of an Ache and the stewardship function that's proposed through the university's accord final the freezing of the demand-driven system at myo in 2017, the introduction of job ready graduates, the closing of the borders, the opening of the borders, the attempt to cap international students, then the allocation of international students, and now the allocation of domestic students. If we don't do that free of the political cycle, we end up having universities at the center of a political football. And increasingly in election years we've seen that manifest through the debate on international students which I've widely spoken about senator in many forums. So that's why we're very supportive of the independence of an ATH and strengthening the independence in the bill before this parliament. That's really important. I think the intersection with the department of education we've got a good example already. The tertiary education uh quality and standards agency was legislated in 2011 and it works very closely and collaboratively with the department of education and with the sector but it has a unique and independent role and that's what we'd like to see for the ATH on resourcing which I think speaks to independence as well is I think as the bill is written and so do our university uh vice chancellors believe that a chief commissioner is somewhat hamstrung if he has to go or she has to go or they have to go cap in hand every single time they need more resources or to employ someone expertise in tertiary education does lie outside the bureaucracy let's think about the complexity of the hex scheme hex scheme is an income contingent loan which designed by Bruce Chapman in the 1980s it is a great Australian policy um um that we've exported to the world we needed to draw on the expertise of an economist from the A&U in the 1980s to develop that. So we had an intersection with the tax and transfer system and the way students might pay a contribution to the cost of their degree. As the ATH bill is written, it would be very difficult or somewhat cumbersome for the chief commissioner to get someone like a Bruce Chapman in to support important and critical work. So that's why we want more autonomy and more independence in terms of resourcing and seeking consultancies and other staff to support the work of the Ache.
we've had the interim A tech with us since the 1st of July 2025 and I note your support for a future Ache, a permanent Ache as well. Um can you take us through any engagement you've had with the interim A tech and its commissioners to date? What have you been working on with them and have you found this to be a productive way of working in its interim setting?
>> Well, I was really pleased that on July 1, I think was the first day or whatever the first day working day of July was when the intramate techch uh uh came to to start its work that they met with all university vice chancellors in a forum um that universities Australia hosted. So we've been working with them from the first day Senator and um we've had very very good engagement. Um there is ongoing work on costing and pricing including what we would do to replace the job ready graduates and the student contribution. Um that work is is happening at a pace but it should be a quicker pace in my view but I'm sure you'll expect me to say that. uh we've been doing excellent work with them on tertiary harmonization also with jobs and skills Australia obviously senator uh sorry professor Barney Glover has a dual role there um and I'll also note the the work and the objective of the um terms of reference for the intramat uh looked at the indigenous knowledges at the heart of our sector and the work that Lissa Barren and Lissa Barren has been a wonderful contributor to higher education over many many years including her groundbreaking report many many years ago when I worked in this building um on building uh a a a generation of tertiary educated indigenous Australians. Um I think we can do more important and uh and urgent work in this space as well. Um but I'm encouraged by the fact it's been part of the intramatex uh remmit. I think um the intram a techch is an intramate attech and it's uh it's still couched within the department of education and needs uh we need to see a full autonomous properly resourced and independent a tech to help with those key priority issues and as I said there are lots of things that the A tech will do over time it we'll have to prioritize the the financial viability and sustainability of our sector in in the first instance and replace JRG and then look at those other critical issues, growing the system, the infrastructure needs for our system for world-class education, how to set international numbers in a way that is robust and thoughtful and of course um ensuring that um our systems can work together. the vocational education system uh and the tertiary and the university system ought to work better and more closely together and that's a kind of yet to be fulfilled ambition in the Australian tertiary education policy space over many many decades and I'd like to see that happen as well
>> certainly plenty to do um Senator PCO you now have the call