Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee, , 2:19:53 to 2:30:47
Discussion covers the transfer of staff from the department to ATEC and the commission's role in providing independent, contestable policy advice to the government.
Topics: Education, Public service staffing
Speakers: Professor Barney Glover, Mehreen Faruqi, David Turvey, Speaker 13, Unknown Speaker
>> Yeah. Um you've said a few things about the delionation of the role of TEXAR and AE. Um a lot of people raised their concerns about the blurring. I'm still unclear about that. I think it's still pretty blurred. So hopefully theou will clarify that. But why I'm saying that is because as I understand it, ATEX does have a compliance role around missionbased compacts. Uh and so in some ways that could be some duplication of role. The other reason why I'm saying that is because functions are moving into a tech now whereas they used to advise Texa. So obviously there is still it's not clear what the you know how both will operate but just going to hesp you is so HESP is going to be abolished but the functions will move into a tech so there won't be a HESP in a tech for instance is that how it is going to work
>> uh senator I think it's going to be very important for the ATH and the minister will no doubt seek advice from the interim a tech in relation to this vitally important we have continuity >> when comes to the work of the higher education standards panel. Absolutely vital. They're doing great work at the moment on a range of matters being referred to them that that are important in terms of >> higher education standards. Some of the work we're doing on teaching quality may in fact um impact on the work of the high education standards panel. So there needs to be continuity. >> Uh there needs to be expertise, deep expertise. The ATH will need to establish the appropriate mechanism to obtain that expertise. So I can see a committee being formed to undertake those functions. It will be a matter that uh uh I'm sure that the uh the chief commissioner of ATH will discuss with the chair >> of the higher education standards panel to ensure we have continuity of the work that is being done. Again, great support from public servants in relation to that work. >> So I can assure you it will be a priority for for continuity and expertise and an appropriate structure.
>> Y was and this is a question for the department. Was TEXA consulted uh um during the formulation of this legislation in terms of what the roles could be would be uh what you know why HESP is being moved and what was their advice if they were consulted on the
>> Yes, there has been engagement with TEXA um uh they were the CEO of TEXA was in included in the explosure draft process that we had on the um on the legislation.
>> and were there any concerns raised by
TEXA? Not to my knowledge, Senator. Um I'm I'm not aware of any concerns that have been raised. I mean, essentially what the threshold standards HP is responsible for developing the threshold standards which TEXA then implements. >> Um so uh so so TEXA doesn't technically have a role around I mean TEXA provides advice and they often come as observers to HES meetings >> um to provide advice to the HESP about how threshold standards are implemented in practice.
>> So now a tech will be um developing
take responsibility for that function.
That's correct. >> Okay. Um earlier there was a conversation about the commissioners. I just wanted to know in addition to the three commissioner roles, how many full-time staff will be supporting the work of a tech? Has that been established yet?
>> Um yes, Senator, the budget allocation that the secretary's provided me is around 100 staff.
>> 100 staff and full-time equivalent. >> Full-time equivalent. Yes. And those 100 staff are going to be coming from the department of education.
>> So senator at the moment I have around 70 staff um
>> from the department
>> that have come across from the department. I mean so >> when I say come across from the department there most of them were employees. We have recruited since um since the establishment of the interim a tech um and you know I've got a plan to recruit further staff over the next couple of months. Okay >> with the aim to to be about 100. But
>> the department loses 70 staff
>> that they were staff that transferred out of the department. So some functions that were being undertaken in the department have come across into the
atte
it's a division a group of the department >> um that's under under um
>> my so the department has lost 70 staff. So who is doing that work >> department now?
>> Those functions were being performed in the department. They're now being performed in my team in the in the intramat.
>> So the functions moved across into a techch from the department senator which meant that
>> so you are you doubling up then like
there will be one one I mean uh on the assumption that the bill is passed by the parliament we move into kind of formal establishment. Um Miss Yelich and I are working on ensuring that we're clear about the delineation of roles and responsibilities. There are some things that my team's currently got responsibility for that will need to be managed by the department going.
>> Okay. You were saying these are functions being performed in the department that are now going to move to a tech. >> Right.
>> That's correct. Yes.
>> We are just making sure that there's no duplication senator. So we we are establishing robust processes um to make sure that there is no duplication. So the functions that have transferred or that are transferring into a tech will no longer be performed by the department.
>> Okay. I mean there's no wonder there's confusion all around about what is going on and how you know things are doubling up and a criticism of the bill. Um okay the minister has repeatedly emphasized his view that a tech is necessary to address the barriers that exist for students from lower SCEs backgrounds. I mean this morning we heard that one of the things that is seriously impacting non low SCES background students is uh job ready graduates. Uh we have seen how students are being deterred actually from doing courses because they can no longer afford the fees but a tech cannot look at the student contribution side um of um um you know the the overall contributions. I understand that you're looking into Commonwealth contribution and will provide advice to the government on the cost of providing um education. But one of the most critical issues and um it was said this morning an unmitigated disaster and probably the worst policy in the last decade which is the job ready graduates will not be able to be addressed under this model for maybe a couple more years at least. Um so what is the reason for not for a tech not being able to provide advice on student contributions?
>> Um senator I think that first comment I would make again as I made earlier I think there are uh suggested amendments that have been raised by a number of people that would potentially if agreed by government through the discussion in the senate uh lead to improvements in the bill. This is an area that could be more explicit in the legislation as you pointed out. Um my personal view is costing and pricing done properly as it will be done the work that we're doing now I think is very comprehensive uh that advice will go to government it will touch on costing it will touch on pricing by implication it must have um implications for student contributions it's the nature of the way in which you address costing through a pricing mechanism of commonwealth it has to be supplemented by income contingent loans so there is an implied connection but it's not an explicit connection I take the point I think it's a valid point. I think it's a matter for discussion. Uh but as I said, I think there is the mechanism there to to make very clear to government uh the the recommendations on pricing from Commonwealth subsidies and by implication student contributions. I know uh Senator, you've quite rightly suggested that uh a further 2-year weight would be uh extremely challenging uh for many people. And I've I've seen commentary around the challenges faced by humanities, arts and social sciences. Um I think one of the advantages of the ATH is that uh should the legislation um be passed the ATH will provide I think in a timely way and in a public way through uh the state of the system report very detailed advice on pricing and costing which should lead to JRG considerations by government more rapidly than two years. That would be my view. That's a contestable view I appreciate. I also think that one of the critical roles for the ATH in my view and this is based on the conversations professor Okaine led with many of the learnedmies and others last year was the importance of national priorities which will be determined by the ache on advice. >> Uh those national priorities can be inclusive of addressing the challenges faced by the humanities in this country and that could influence the negotiation of missionbased compacts. This is a matter that the ATH could consider. I'm confident that there are mechanisms there that can address those challenges more rapidly than the time frame you've indicated. But you raise a very valid point worthy of discussion in the Senate
>> and the national priorities are set by the government of the day. So no one knows what they will be depending on the government of the day.
>> Well, the Ache will determine based on the advice it receives what national priorities are reflected in the uh statement of strategic priorities. So there is a very clear role for the ATC to determine that.
>> Yeah. Um just a very quick question from me. Last question from me. Um so it's it's really fantastic that we have a first nations commissioner who will be a first nations person. I don't know why there was any doubt about that. Um but I guess how does the bill um address and ensures that the education system is properly reflecting other types of diversity as well? And I'm thinking of other racially and culturally marginalized communities. Um, you know, LGBTQIA plus people, people with disability and other diversity. Is there something explicit in a bill that recognizes that? I know JSA I had a chat to the minister and we did include some of the things um some of these um elements in there. Is there something explicit in this bill that recognizes the need for diversity? I don't think
the bill explicitly does that. Um, Senator, however, I think that this is one of the important aspects I think of stewardship of the sector, the importance of the student experience >> and the immense value in this country, of diversity >> in our universities. It's something that, as you're quite rightly point out, jobs and skills Australia is very committed to >> um in the context of the labor market and the school system to understand the benefits of diversity. Yes, >> I would be very confident in the negotiation of missionbased compacts that student experience would lead to very um considered uh discussion on those matters broadly.
>> Thank you very much. Um thanks chair.