Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee, , 2:01:18 to 2:19:53
The department outlines the recruitment process for permanent commissioners and clarifies the distinct roles of ATEC as a steward versus TEQSA as a regulator.
Topics: Education, Public service staffing
Speakers: Professor Barney Glover, Mehreen Faruqi, Marielle Smith, David Turvey, Speaker 13
>> Great. Okay. Thank you. Um some submissions have raised the need for a tech commissioners to have additional expertise. So, for example, expertise in equity, um, regional education, research, or the independent sector. There's other categories that, um, have been suggested. Can you tell us why the bill currently provides for three commissioners? I'm not sure if that's for you, Professor Glover, or to the
>> yes, >> I'm happy to respond to that. Um, one thing I should say at the outset, uh, uh, chair, is I I believe that this legislation is fit for purpose. First of all, uh I do acknowledge there have been many suggestions made that may enhance the legislation and I'm sure there will be worthy consider consideration of those suggestions in the context of the Senate discussions that will ensue from this report. I think this is an area of of potential consideration. I personally believe as I said the legislation's fit for purpose. I'm very confident that the selection process will find suitably experienced senior people able to lead the ATH. The legislation certainly provides for additional uh commissioners if required in the future. If you look at one of the suggested areas you raised chair was in uh research. At the moment we are waiting for the strategic examination of research and development report to be uh released with recommendations uh to government. At some point that will no doubt be a matter for consideration by ministers about the relationship between research and the ATH. There is a two-year review point for the legislation which I think is an important moment to consider additional functions that the A tech may take on. So I think the mechanis mechanisms are there to consider expanding the number of commissioners. But I'm very confident and certainly from the experience over the course of the last six or seven months with the interim commission with professor Okaine, professor Barant and myself, I feel we had the breadth of experience necessary to guide the implementation phase. I'm very confident people with the right experience will be selected and I'm very confident it will be appropriate for the uh near-term and potentially beyond for the Ache. But there is the opportunity to consider further areas of expertise.
>> If I may add um just um what Professor Glover said, we are currently in the recruitment process for the permanent commissioners. So um the recruitment process opened last year in December and closed in on the 29th of January. So we are in the process um currently considering applications. >> Thank you.
>> I mean can you talk to me about the breadth of skills and experience you'd expect the successful applicants or those future commissioners to have?
I think the would you say something? Um very happy for colleagues to u to comment. Um I think we we need to see the chief commissioner with a very deep understanding of the university system in this country. I think it's vitally important that they appreciate uh no not just the contemporary context for Australian universities but the recent history of Australian universities and some of the challenges from a policy perspective that have impacted quite severely on Australian universities and the rhythms and mechanisms of our universities and how they can be supported and assisted in a negotiated mission-based compact approach to stewardship of the sector. So there is a depth of uh knowledge expected of the chief commissioner in relation to uh higher education. They need to have a broad understanding of tertiary education. So which is not unusual for I think senior people who are associated with the sector because the relationship with vocational education and training with TA with uh private uh university providers with the broad nature of our tertiary education system is important. We need a well functioning tertiary education system as well as a very well functioning university sector for the future of this country. So we need that breadth of understanding. Um key areas like research are crucial uh they are crucial now to the ache in its missionbased compact discussions although we await outcomes of other processes uh to understand impacts on university research more broadly. Costing and pricing is a crucial requirement for the future of the sector. So yes, there is a set of skills we expect of our chief commissioner. I think very importantly and the accord made this very clear that First Nations Australians are at the core of reform in higher education and their self-determination. So a full-time first nations commissioner with a breadth of understanding of tertiary education in this country is vital and to have a third commissioner with knowledge of the tertiary education system broadly I think will complement both the chief commissioner and the first nations commissioner's expertise. they will all contribute. I think the act the draft act makes it very clear. The act makes it very clear uh the decision-m process for the commission, the consensus approach to decision-m. So we expect all commissioners to have the breadth and depth of knowledge necessary to guide the sector. And if I might say um and this is to to highlight the challenges that our staff and our students in our tertiary education system and particularly in university at the moment are facing a deep understanding and connection with that student experience and staff experience because that's vital to understanding in negotiating missionbased compacts and stewardship of the system. This is not about direction. Our autonomous universities need to have their autonomy and their ability to protect and promote academic freedom and we also need to work with them to ensure the best possible student experience, the best possible quality of teaching and to ensure the staff experience. And one of the reasons I think I commend this legislation to you chair and committee um I'm very very concerned that the volatility and the uncertainty and the lack of management and planning that we've experienced over the course of many years in higher education is causing significant challenges to our staff and adding to the burden that they're facing. We need that stability. The ache can bring that stability and that I think is a very important consideration for the commissioners.
Thank you,
>> Senator. Do you mind if I just add a couple of extra technical uh elements? Um, in addition to what Professor Glover said, uh, the the chief commissioner, the bill requires the chief commissioner has appropriate independence as well as a deep sector knowledge and deep background, but appropriate independence. Um, the first nations commissioner must be an aiginal or touristra islander person um, with also with deep expertise and understanding of the tertiary system. And then um clause 59 talks about the collective experience and and knowledge of the commissioners being in higher education, vet, tertiary education, governance administration, stakeholder engagement and consultation and regional Australia. And at least one of the commissioners must have substantial experience and knowledge in
>> Okay. Thank you. Um I'm comforted by that. Senator Freaky, I've got about four or five questions to go. Do you want me to just keep plowing through and then I'll come to you if that's all right? Um all right. Could you explain expectations as to how the Ache will engage with other relevant agencies including JSA, TEXA, ASQUA, ARC and the regional education commissioner or
>> Thank you chair. Now it's a very important consideration that we've been spending some time on uh in the interim ATH discussions very important relationship with TEXA the ATH is not a regulator. TEXA is the regulator. It's very important that in the uh the engagement with universities through the negotiation of missionbased compacts and the many other ways that the ATH will be supporting the sector that there is a close working relationship with the regulator and if there are challenging or difficult circumstances that arise that there is a strong exchange of information and relationship between the two to avoid very strongly to avoid any overburden of the system by multiple agency engagement on issues. There are matters that are regulatory that should be dealt with by TEXA. Matters to do with missionbased compacts are matters for the ATH and there should be dialogue. So we've we're having those conversations and we seek to have anou between uh the A tech and uh TEXA. Similarly, we're having conversations with the chief executive officer for the ARC looking ahead to seeing what comes out of the SR review to ensure that as we as the A tech discusses matters to do with research in relation to uh missionbased compacts and negotiation with universities that there is awareness of and exchange of information with. Similarly with ASQUA the regulator in the vocational education and training space along with state regulators. very important to understand uh from TA and from vet providers about tertiary harmonization dual sector harmonization of regulation these are important matters for regulators valuable to have in exchange of information uh with the ATH JSA plays I'll flip hats for a second very important role here because it will be providing advice to the ATH on national skill needs for this country and to ensure through its jobs and skills report each year and through the work it does on occupational shortages and demands in the labor market for skill level one higher education qualified uh graduates that we engage with JSA to ensure that we get that information to inform the statement of strategic priorities and guidelines to universities so that then in negotiation with universities we can look to address those national priorities.
>> Okay, thank you so much. Um I do want to ask about the role of um committees. I understand the ATH will be able to establish a range of committees to assist commissioners with their work. Could you tell us how these committees might be used to supplement the expertise of um a tech when that's needed?
>> Um absolutely. I think there are good examples through the interim a techch process that illustrate this and again I pay tribute to professor Okaine who very quickly when we established the interim ATH was very keen for example uh to have a very um highquality experienced uh working group to look at pricing and costing uh very important part of the deliberations of the intramat representative of the sector independently chaired shared independent advice, some consulting support as required uh enabling that group to develop a new costing regime so that we can get the data we need to inform the ATH about the challenges being faced by the sector on uh the cost of delivering quality teaching and learning and importantly then what pricing recommendation should be made to uh the commonwealth. So clearly a working party strongly representative key stakeholders uh established. Similarly we have at the moment I have uh um 60 people online uh in a workshop around enhancing professional practice and teaching quality >> right across the sector not just higher education um through universities but also through non-university university providers and others. So it's a very representative body to address a very specific task over a period of time to produce a report for the consideration of the Ache. Um there will be a first nations um advisory council for the ATH very importantly that's already been established through the interim ATH period something for the full A tech to consider uh in terms of uh continuation as a as a critical part of ATX deliberations on first nations people their experiences in our higher education system and importantly concepts like um self-determination. So yes, the ATH will form committees to supplement the the experience and expertise of the commissioners and to bring those recommendations forward to the commission for consideration. So I think it is a vitally important part uh of the way the uh ACT will function. The higher education support panel um higher education standards panel my apologies is also uh to come under the opaces of the ATH that's an extraordinarily important body dealing with Australia's higher education standards. the Ache will need to establish an appropriate structure to support the work uh that was undertaken by HESP and to provide a continuing opportunity to consider and to reform the higher education standards that guide our sector.
>> Thank you so much, Professor Glover. Um you mentioned in one of your earlier answers that ATH is not a regulator and you spoke about its stewardship role. Um this does seem to be a misconception in some of the submissions we've received. So can I confirm that ATH is not intended to be a regulator?
>> No, Ache is not a regulator. I think it's a very important distinction uh between the role of a regulator like TEXA which I think does and particularly as Texa is reformed uh under changes that are under consideration for Texas legislation uh for a whole range of reasons. Texas Texan needs to be empowered as a regulator to work very closely with the sector to address regulatory concerns. In fact, one of the reasons we have a highquality tertiary education system in this country is that we have very important regulators TEXA and ASQA. Uh the role of ATECH is to work with the sector to negotiate missionbased compacts to allocate managed growth funding to ensure that we grow higher education and tertiary education over the next few years and beyond to address very challenging targets in the future to ensure we address national priorities. So it's very much about the allocation of places and funding. It's not about regulation.
>> Okay. Um thank you very much. I've just got one last question. Is the A tech taking any functions from TEXA?
>> No, I'm not aware of any functions from TEXA that would move across other than it's not a function of TEXA but the higher education support panel which is higher education standards panel which is not part of TEXA but has a close relationship comes to the ATH and that's about standards. The Ache will use advice from that working very closely with TEXA.
>> Okay. Thank you very much for your evidence and thank you Senator Freaky for your patience.
>> Thanks chair. Good morning everyone and especially apologies to our colleagues who were here late last night. Sorry for holding you here but thank you uh for coming anyway. Um I just I just feel like the department and you all are living in a parallel universe to all the other stakeholders that I have spoken to especially about the independence um of um a tech because we have heard from every single other stakeholder that they are concerned about the independence of a tech which is what was recommended in um the accord um and you know it's it's particularly related to ministerial direction and approval approval. Um, and it clearly like the legislation clearly says that it can provide advice and recommendations if requested by the minister and then it says a tech must seek and obtain the agreement of the minister before publishing any advice or recommendations given by a tech. Um, and isn't it accurate that JSA actually has the ability to commission its own research without the direction of the minister?
Uh thank you Senator. J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J JSA has a work plan that we agree with the uh the minister as part of a response to a statement of expectation from the minister. The same will apply to the ATH and uh yes, you're correct. JSA publishes work. We consult with the minister ahead of publishing work because I think that's appropriate to do with the minister. We have appropriate protocols to ensure that there are no surprises that we uh uh we uh on a from a very detailed research evidence-based approach produce work for publication. You're touching on a very important issue, Senator, and I acknowledge that many of the submissions have also touched on this issue. I think it it is of merit to have this in discussion with the Senate and potentially to consider um whether there may be amendments. Anything that would enhance the legislation should be welcome. I personally believe the legislation is fit for purpose as it stands. But I would add that in that context I do so because of the uh ability of the Ache to commission its own research and through the state of the system report every year to ensure that is made public. But
commission its own research only if the minister agrees. Right? That can only happen if the minister agrees under this legislation.
>> It's not my interpretation of the legislation. The ATH could commission its own work >> under the current legislation. Couldn't publish it other than through the state the system report.
>> Yeah. So like it could be a waste of time commissioning it if in the end they won't be able to publish it. But thank you for those insights. Um as well um I guess um Mr. Tony Cook said in estimates last December that Ache actually doesn't have a role around policy. I just want to clarify that. I mean how can a tech serve its stewardship purpose if it cannot provide input into tertiary education policy?
>> Uh I perhaps would say something very quickly and I'll hand over to uh to the deputy secretary. Um I think this is a very important uh aspect actually of the role of a tech as it is of the role of JSA. We are not a policy agency. However, we make very strong recommendations to government >> uh regarding and polic advice to policy makers
>> regarding policy
>> regarding policy. We make recommendations regarding policy. It is a matter for the department though to actually give policy advice to the
that because having doesn't have a role around policy to me implies that it can't even give advice on policy.
>> No, to the contrary, the ATH will be very active in providing advice and one of the reasons I think the the concept of an independent agency is valuable in this regard is this enables a contesting of advice to ministers. The a tech will give freely and frankly advice to the minister and the department would be required freely and frankly >> to provide its advice in relation to that and and I think this is for the betterment of policy development in this country. There will be a depth of expertise developed in the ATH. they will add great value to that. And while I know issues of independence are raised, I believe the independence is is primarily and strongly invested in the independence of the commissioners, their skills and expertise to guide the
>> Did you want to add something?
>> Thank you. I I absolutely um agree with Professor Glover. I think the constability of of advice is really important and the complimentarity of the of ATX advice with with the department is um is critical at this point.