Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee, , 1:44:32 to 2:01:18
Officials from the Department of Education and the interim ATEC explain the statutory independence, reporting requirements, and staffing arrangements of the new commission.
Topics: Education, Public service staffing
Speakers: Professor Barney Glover, Marielle Smith, David Turvey, Unknown Speaker, Speaker 13, Speaker 14
>> Thank you Senator Dolega. Um I'd like to thank you both for participating in our inquiry today and the the work and engagement you always put into our hearings and inquiries actually. So thank you both. Um, I don't believe you took quands, but if I missed one, 20th of February is when we're asking for them to be returned to us. Um, but thank you so much. You're free to log off, and I will now call officials from the department. Um, we'll just take a a brief moment as they come to the table. Okay. All right. We'll just suspend for Um good morning uh to you all. We've got a number of officials from the Department of Education. So I might just ask each of you to state your full name in the capacity in which you're appearing today for the hand side. >> We'll start with you, Mr. Turvy.
>> David Turvy, uh executive director,
Glover. I'm the acting chief commissioner of the interimate techch and also the jobs and skills Australia
>> Uh yes, deputy secretary um Harry high education research and international.
>> Thank you. And I note you were here with us late into the night last night. So thank you for being back.
>> Thank you. Mo Karen Sandok, first assistant secretary international
division. Good morning. Um, lovely to see you all. Um, we've generally been asking our witnesses to table opening statements, but if you do have one which you need to provide verbally, I'm happy for you to do so.
>> Thank you, chair. If if I may, we have a a tabled version which I think's been provided to the committee. So, I'll take that as read. Um,
>> thank you.
>> But I did want to say one thing if I could very briefly.
>> Absolutely.
>> Uh, I wanted to pay tribute to Professor Mary O' Kaine. Um Mary was both the leader and uh the chair of the university's accord review panel. Uh I was privileged to work with Mary on the review which delivered I think recommendations to government for transformational reform of higher education in this country. Mary was also the inaugural interim chief commissioner of the ATH to assist David in the establishment of ATH. uh Mary has made a generationally significant contribution to this country and I think it is timely to recognize that chair before we start the questions.
>> Thank you professor and I think on behalf of the committee we can um add our name to those remarks as well. Thank you very much. Um I might get underway if that's okay Senator Fricki and then I'll come to you. >> a few of the submissions have raised concerns around the independence of the ache. We've seen that pretty consistently in a number of submissions. Um, I understand that the ATH is consulted, sorry, constituent constituent made up in a way that is very similar to how jobs and skills Australia is established and we heard a bit about kind of the the similarities or potential for similarities between the two earlier. Um, can you take us through how the ATE will be independent and please forgive my Senate estimates brain, it's not working at full capacity. Professor, if I could start
and I'm sure my my colleagues will will add to this. Uh you're right to draw a comparison with jobs and skills Australia in part jobs and skills Australia which I'm proud to lead and I should acknowledge Mr. Turvy who uh established both the National Skills Commission and Jobs and Skills Australia. So he may also wish to add comments to this. Jobs and Skills Australia is a what's called a secondary statutory authority and the independence of JSA is very much vested in the commissioners uh both myself as the JSA commissioner and my two deputy commissioners who are independent statutory officers. So the independence uh that's reflected in the legislation that's proposed and for the consideration of the Senate uh would establish the Ache as a secondary uh statutory authority. In other words, the independence is vested through the commissioners. There are a range of other markers of independence through the legislation that we could discuss that add additional weight to the independence of the Ache. But it is not a fully independent statutory authority. Uh it is a secondary statutory authority which means the independence is very much vested in the commissioners uh and those statutory offices. The staff of the ATH are on seconment from the department of education under the direction of the commissioners. I think I should stress under the direction of the commissioners. I've been fortunate to work at jobs and skills Australia for two years in that model uh working with fine public servants who are very dedicated to the work of jobs and skills Australia. They are directed by the commission. We have a work plan. Uh we deliver I think timely and important reports on on a range of issues impacting on the Australian labor market and skills system including tertiary education more broadly and in that context I think the independence is clear and well defined. I feel uh unimpeded by political interference as the commissioner for jobs and skills Australia and that independence is vested through my role. I think the same would be true for the ATH. I'm not sure if my colleagues would like to add any elements to that.
>> Look, there's a couple of things that I'd add. Um Senator the um in addition to the the statutory appointment of the commissioners who are the independent statutory of soldiers reporting to the to the um minister um the commissioners will publish an an annual report or state of the system um which would outline their views on um developments in the system and issues and priorities. Um uh they'd also produce every second year a statement of strategic priorities which outlines the commission's view about priorities for the sector and uh and how that should develop. Um it's uh we'll also publish an annual work plan. H sorry every second year a work plan um that outlines the the work that's intended to be undertaken by the ache. Um clearly you know that there's a a process for appointment of commissioners that's articulated in the bill. Um and uh we'd obviously be be reporting transparently through the kind of usual mechanisms. Um so there's a number of other elements. I guess probably finally the intention is not articulated in the bill but in the operation of the secondary statuto structure model there would be a memorandum memorandum of understanding between the ATH and the department that governs the relationship between the two bodies.
>> Thank you. And I've got a few questions on that report which I'll come to in a moment. Can I just ask did you seek advice on these measures of independence?
>> Yes, it was an extensive consultation process during the accord. Um very extensive consultation and the accord recommended an independent statutory body during the implementation advisory commission phase. Again, there was extensive consultation on consultation on models that could be adopted and I was certainly asked as the JSA commissioner to provide advice on the functioning of JSA and whether a secondary statutory authority model would be uh appropriate to consider for the ATECH. So yes, the the uh implementation advisory committee played a considerable role in providing advice as did JSA.
>> Um I just want to come back and Mr. you might be the right one to answer this but just on those state of the tertiary education system reports can you take us through the types of information which might be included in that report
>> certainly page
>> um I think this is a very important part of the um public reporting from the uh from the ATH both through tableabling in parliament and public reporting of the the work of the ATH And at the moment we're developing an extensive data uh suite that the uh the ATH will utilize to gauge the uh state of the system in terms of uh all of the very critical indicators of progress. Uh the ATH is a steward for the system. So we'll be negotiating with universities for uh missionbased compacts and allocating uh domestic and international student load in accordance with the act and the higher education support act. So alongside that will be a range of performance indicators that we'll be collecting significantly already collected. So we're not looking to add burden on universities and the uh the uh the ATH will report on progress against those in terms of equity student numbers and success uh in terms of sto total student numbers in terms of national priorities. One of the key roles for the ATH will be through its statement of strategic priorities to work with universities over how we can address collectively national priorities as they may be defined by the Commonwealth through the minister's statement of expectation and more broadly determined by the ATH. We need to ensure that we're making progress against those national priorities that will be reported in the state of the system address all of the work and research that the Ache will do. For example, at the moment the intramate techch is doing extensive work on costing and pricing. A very crucial part of understanding how the universities in Australia are are challenged by the current funding regime. Uh how do we understand the costing side of that and then from that how do we give advice to the government on pricing and in that regard that should be reported extensively through the state of the system report. We are doing work at the moment on enhancing professional practice in the quality of teaching in Australia's universities. A crucial piece of work. I just left a very large working group uh from the sector that's looking at that. We need to see the advice we can provide to government in relation to enhancing professional practice and teaching and the quality of teaching and that would be reported through the state of the system address. This will be a very comprehensive overview of the system and by the way it would also touch on progress in tertiary harmonization. One of the crucial responsibilities of the ATH will be to encourage universities and our vational education and training sector to work in a more joined up way and that would be part of what will be both I'm sure within the statement uh within the statement of strategic priorities but importantly is already very uh critically being responded to by the sector. How do we make it easier for students to move between our tertiary sector uh both higher education and vocational education and training to address a whole range of challenges particularly for equity and first nation students. We would be reporting on progress in meeting uh very important targets in relation to tertiary harmonization. I could go on. Jobs and Skills Australia does produce an annual report which is tabled in parliament which is a state of the system terms of the labor market and the skill system and I think they're very important documents tabled in parliament and we're very happy to respond to them.
>> Thank you very much. What role will the minister or government have in this
>> Sorry, what
>> role will the minister or the government have?
>> No, this isn't this will be an ache report. The minister has responsibilities under the act as is perfectly um appropriate in providing guidance to the ATH through a statement of expectations. >> Uh and uh the ATH will put together and submit the statement of the system state the system report.
>> So that will be done independently.
>> Yes, senator. The the bill um talks about the report being provided to the minister and then also being tabled the minister then tableabling it in parliament.
>> Thank you. Um, and then you've just mentioned it again, Mr. Turfy, and you mentioned it before, Professor Glover, that the report will be tabled in the parliament. Are there any other requirements around the publishing of this report?
>> Uh, it's uh to be published on the ATEX website no later than 12 months after the end of the calendar year, I think, is probably the only other requirements outlined in the bill.
>> Thank you very much. Um, some of the submissions have raised concerns about the level of staffing and the AEX ability to recruit their own staff, including from the sector. Can you take us through how the staffing arrangements will be man managed through the for the
>> So senator uh as a secondary statutory uh authority the way this would work in practice is that um the resources are made available from the department of education. So the secretary um would would agree resource allocation in consultation with the commissioners. Um those resources are then as described in the bill at the direction of the commissioners. Um and so you'd have a kind of group public servants working um on a day-to-day basis um being directed by the commissioners. Uh the standard kind of recruitment and um um human resource arrangements that are apply to all public service agencies would then apply which means um we use open merit selection processes to recruit staff with the appropriate skills to do the work that we would need to do. uh which would mean we'd be potentially recruiting from the sector or or from any other place that we needed um to to get the skills um that we needed to do the work. >> Uh the um the bill talks about the the secretary being able to engage contractors and consultants. >> Those um provisions um which is standard th those provisions can be delegated by the secretary. So that so then the the staff either executive director or other staff potentially even commissioners as they're described in the bill um could have the power to enter into contracts um to bring in consultants or other experts um to provide additional um um you know.
>> Okay. So just to confirm the A tech commission as an executive director would be able to hire staff and they may be able to hire contractors and yeah and
I think the bill explicitly refers to uh the the secretary consulting commissioners on the appointment of senior executive employees.
>> Yeah. Okay. Um the national tertiary education objective was recommended by the university accords final report. Can you take us through the need for a national tertiary education objective and why it was recommendation one?
>> Yes, I'm happy to chair. Um, and I pay tribute to Mary O'Neal because Mary's experience in her one of her many other roles in relation to Australia's energy regulator uh was one of the compelling reasons that she saw the value of a national objective in an act, a reference point, a guiding light, uh, a a point at which the broad objectives for tertiary education are highlighted as briefly and as su succinctly as we can and that we reference progress in terms of uh the activities of the Ache and its aspirations to lift participation in higher education to address national priorities to ensure that equity and First Nations students are at the heart of our reform agenda and that we stabilize the policy regime that impacts on our universities all things that the ATH will be responsible for doing. Those are matters where there is an important reference point through a national tertiary education objective. So it's a simple statement. It is supported by the objects of the act which go into considerably more detail about what we expect of our universities. But we felt a single objective would be uh of merit uh in embedding a very much a uh a north star uh in the context of reference for the ATH and all of those supporting the ATH.
>> Thank you. And can I confirm is the national tertiary education objective in the ATH legislation as it's drafted essentially the same as the objective from the university's accord?
>> The difference uh there is a difference the uh the version that's in the ATH legislation is the the front end of what is in the accord recommendation. There are subsidiary sections brief but subsidiary sections in the accord recommendation. I think we felt a shorter sharper version would be appropriate and uh and I think the version that we put in is still consistent with the version in the accord recommendations. It is the front end of it without the subsidiary elements. I think the objects of the act are also relevant to have in mind when considering those matters.
>> So it's with the same effect
>> I believe it is. Yes, it's a guiding uh objective for the ATH.