Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee, , 1:29:46 to 1:44:32
NTEU representatives discuss the impact of casualization on teaching quality and the potential for ATEC to address systemic issues like wage theft in universities.
Topics: Education, Workplace relations
Speakers: Dr Terri MacDonald, Kieran McCarron, Mehreen Faruqi, Josh Dolega, Unknown Speaker, Marielle Smith
>> Um thank you. This morning we heard from um Universities Australia about the learning and teaching office. Um some of you may remember I do remember it because I started my academic career care career in the last couple of years of that office existing. Is that something you think is important for a
>> Yeah, it's an interesting uh it's an interesting idea. Um and I think that needs to probably u be explored a bit further. There was a lot of criticism around the abolishment of uh the office or the defunding of the office um as it eventually went. Um from memory uh there was a lot of criticism too around the scholarships and the awards that the office used to give out. Um the sector actually really liked those. Um but they were good for um they were good for you know our um you know academic um you know staff who delivered teaching and learning in particular because you know that was um there's always a bit of an internal discussion over you know um >> what you know recognition those roles are given. >> Uh so I think um there's something to be said for that. Um if with anything it probably need to be in the context of where we are now. Um I don't know if it's necessarily helpful to go backwards, but certainly um concepts like that going forwards um certainly could have new life. Yes.
>> Yeah. I just want to um go to the job ready graduates. You mentioned it earlier in terms of obviously funding cuts. Uh it's having a huge impact as you know on students because of the massive fee hikes and more than $50,000 arts degrees. Now, we heard this morning that it was probably the worst policy in the last few decades in an unmitigated disaster. I do know that you probably agree with all of that. Um the government h has kept telling us that um attew contributions and not student contributions. Uh would you agree that a tech should actually be able to consider and look at student contributions? Um
uh yes. So I mean on legislatively uh for for reasons I don't understand. Um well I I can guess that though. Um the legislation uh constrains Ache to the government um you know for one of a better better word the Commonwealth grant supported side of things even though that's um potentially going to not be the case under a new funding agreement um new funding system. Um we though do agree that um student contribution should be part of that. Um I understand that the legislation allows the minister to refer to a tech particular things that he wants or she wants them to look into. So I understand that um the jobs ready graduate would potentially be or is one of those issues um that have been referred on or at least will formally be done. So um but our view is that you know first of all the commission should be independent from government um you know and that secondly it should have the ability to look into all forms of funding for higher education um and that's why we agree that well that's why we're sort of uh why we are pushing the view that it should be able to undertake its own research um in the way that the
mean I think um a tech looking into JRG and taking another few years is kicking the can down the road. Do you think JRG fee hikes and funding cuts need to be reversed urgently?
view on jobs ready graduate has been from the very moment that we first saw the legislation um in 20 2020 um that is we have opposed that legislation. We've opposed that policy the entire way through. Uh the NTU was one of the most vocal oppositions to it. Um we tried very hard to have um to have it um overturned um and unfortunately we weren't successful. Um unfortunately now it's not just the impact on students. Uh there was an impact on uh the universities as we rightly pointed out in the time it was stripping money from the sector. Uh and uh in order to fully address the jobs ready graduate problem, not only do you have to look at the hex level um you know payment thresholds uh but you also need to look at what's happening with um the um you know the funding for universities themselves. M
um both NTEU and others as well have raised concerns about the replacement or rather the abolishment of the higher education standards panel uh in this kind of um reiteration of a tech uh without any guarantees for maintaining that expertise that existed in that panel. Um what is your view um about that? Like um are you concerned that that expertise will be lost and should there be guard rails around maintaining that expertise um in a tech or should just remain as it is with TEXA?
Um yes. Uh we actually that was one of the things that sort of struck me with the legislation um is how the uh the duties of the higher education standards panel was being transferred over to a tech and therefore there would be nothing for the panel to do. Um we uh at the moment the panel is made up of um you know it does have quite a few vice chancellors on it which we certainly would have opinions on but it also has staff and student representation on it. We think that's very important. >> Um we also it's it's also a a um mechanism to talk directly to the minister. Um so you know that in itself is an important thing I think for us to be able to have in place when they're talking about things like threshold standards because it's really important. Um so I think um from our perspective you know our first uh preference would be for the panel to to stay as it is or for at least that link to be in a in sort of like in place um where you know you have that connection to the minist. Um the alternative is that you know you then have a system where you have a committee which is advising uh a tech which is advising the minister. You know what I mean? You you suddenly two steps back. So uh that's an issue in itself. Kieran, do you have anything you wanted
Um I would just I suppose I would just add that um earlier this morning I think it was mentioned that the ATH um does have in the bill it does provide a tech with a power to create a committee but I I suppose I would say that that's not an obligation uh to create something that actually um represent replicates the panel so I don't think we can just rely
um okay just last question from me I mean you've talked a lot about um the need for independence for a tech which currently the current model really doesn't have um others have said as well um that it risks becoming another layer of bureaucracy um and others have said it you know it's kind of like doubling up the education department because a lot of the resources from that department will be used by a tech others have suggested um more commissioners um as as well. Um so are you concerned about the in adding another layer of bureaucracy in effect if the the suggestions that you're making and others are making about independence um don't get up in
>> Um thanks sir. I I I don't that's not a I wouldn't say that's a high level concern for us and our membersh. >> I think that our members are concerned with the governance failures in universities. They're concerned with wage theft. >> They're concerned about job ready graduates. Um, the ATH provides an opportunity for uh an a body with a public good mission to enter into a mission-based compact with a university and to ask that university to lift its game on governance and other areas where universities are falling short. So, we think that we see the opportunities for a a strong and independent A tech to improve the sector and to make things work. Um, and that's kind of what we're
>> but it has to be it has to be independent and resourced to be able to
>> Yes. Yes.
>> Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks,
>> I'm Senator Freaky. Senator Dele, you
have the call. Thanks very much chair. Uh good morning guys. How you going today? Thanks for joining us. Um just two quick questions um from me this morning. Um feedback provided through the university's accord process uh indicated overwhelming support for the establishment of um the Australian Tertiary Education Commission. um in the university's accord process. Could I check whether the NTU supported the establishment of an A tech and could you take us through what critical role that you see the Ache playing both over the next few years and in the long term?
>> Um yes, we were supportive of of an independent regulator is how we phrased it. Um, I should probably add that the NTU has been advocating for uh an independent regulator to um oversee funding of the higher education sector and particularly public universities for at least 15 years. Um, which is how long I've been in my role for. Um, so you know this has been a core policy that we've come out with. We connected it to what we call public accountability agreements uh which are essentially the missionbased compacts. We wanted them to be enhanced um and for universities to have um these individual agreements with government and their you know um not just government but with also you know their constituencies um you know cuz that's included within the compacts as well is what we thought um and that for these to be public so that you know um everybody could actually see how the universities were responding to what was essentially their their KPIs. Um so we uh certainly advocated for an independent um regulator. We felt it's very important for there to be um arms length from government. Um you know when it comes to funding because unfortunately funding and I have seen this and Kieran has seen this of course um many many years um it does tend to be used as a bit of a political tool um you know at times. So uh we certainly have supported that and our vision had been for an independent regulator um which would oversee uh funding which would do research on the sector uh which would also you know um essentially potentially oversee some of these other um you know uh regulatory authorities. Um but if that's not the case it's not necessarily you know a problematic. It just needs to be um in a system that works together. Kieran did you have anything you wanted
Um I'll just say in the over the long term uh vision I suppose we we would like to see um a strong independent a tech um you know quickly implementing um the new managed growth system which hopefully replaces the jobs already um and as well bringing in the vital needsbased funding um as well and keeping universities I suppose focused on their public good mission um and improving their governance.
>> Thank you very much. Um and just finally um the interim matech has been in place since 1 July 2005. Um have you had a chance to engage with the interim techch and commissioners and if so could you take us through some of the engagement um and any notable notable differences in previous engagement with the
Uh unfortunately we may have to take that one on notice um senator because uh I'm aware that the NTU has met uh with commissioners the interim commissioners. I can't tell you how many times though as that would have been done by our president um who is unfortunately not here with us today. Uh but um we can certainly check with you to let you know how many times she did meet with um the uh the commissioners, the interim commissioners and um you know anything additional to that.
Um I can I can briefly mention that we did meet with the uh director or CEO of the the commission is uh to um talk about their investigation into the cost of teaching. Um we we provided some very important feedback um to the interim A tech on the previous methodology used to >> judge the cost of teaching and and we pointed out that that methodology failed to account for the unpaid work done um at the time of that study by a large number of casual teaching staff. So um we felt that it was really valuable that we were able to provide some insight into how that previous um how we felt that previous methodology had failed workers um in in undervaluing the work that they had contributed to teaching. >> So we appreciated that opportunity to speak to them about that issue.
>> And can I just add that was the methodology that underpinned the jobs really graduate policies.
>> No worries. Um thank you chair.