Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 7:32:30 to 8:06:54
Consular assistance for Australians detained in Iraq and Vietnam, and diplomatic engagement regarding Iran and the Philippines.
Topics: Human rights, DFAT
Speakers: David Shoebridge, Inderpal Sidhu, Sarah Storey, Hon Penny Wong, Hon Sarah Henderson, Dave Sharma, Elizabeth McGregor, Jan Adams AO PSM, Julie Heckscher, Paul Griffiths, Raff Ciccone, Speaker 27
minister I have some questions um initially about Robert Pa and then I have some questions about um Ranjit um Raja um just to indicate to your team
>> yeah it's crazy
staff to the tables uh chair as I said to you in the Sorry, chair. Um, as I said to you in the break, I um I do have um >> a counterpart call to do and to prep for. Uh and so I did want um we did schedule it for after when we thought this would be done, but obviously it's up to the committee, but I've asked Senator Minister Watt to come and be here. And if you're still going when he's finished, when uh when I finish, I'll come back.
>> Okay. Well, I've got the pleasure of Minister Watt for the rest of the night, I think, in trade.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you'll find he's he's funnier than I am.
>> I know. I actually [clears throat] he actually is anyway. [laughter] >> I do miss him though. We used to spend a lot of time in our rat and um [laughter] although he does quite a lot of work for the committee, too. So,
>> Oh, there you go. You can have some more entertainment.
>> All right. You
>> Anyway, if I leave during your question, Senator Shoebridge, that's why. Sorry about that.
>> I understand. >> Um, Minister, I spoke with Robert Pther's wife, Desiree, this morning, and I'm sure you would understand her deep distress. um her husband Robert who was jailed in 2021 on trumped up fraud charges driven by the Iraqi central bank um and faces potentially other charges also being driven by the Iraqi central bank. He's in desperate situation um um urgently needing medical care he can't obtain in Iraq. Um, Minister, we've covered this before, so I I don't want to go back over the past history, but what's the current state of play um between the Australian government and the Iraqi government about getting this Australian citizen free?
>> Um, I'll ask Elizabeth McGregor, Miss McGregor to add to my answer. Um, and I'll again reiterate what I said. I think in October. Um, you know, I acknowledge the government acknowledges the immense toll that Mr. Pther's detention and particularly his travel ban has had on him and on his family. Uh, uh, I've publicly called for the Iraqi government to lift the ban on humanitarian gowns. Uh, and I make that call again today. Uh, you know, we we we we would like Australian government seeks uh that Mr. Trap's travel ban be lifted on humanitarian grounds and in recognition of our longstanding bilateral relationship. Uh the government's raid representations including at the prime minister's level who's uh with his counterpart and myself with the Iraqi foreign minister most recently in September and will continue to make representations. Uh we are working with like-mindeds including the European Union and Ireland uh uh to this end. Uh, I don't know if there's anything that Miss McGregor or Miss Sidhu can add to that. I'm not
trying to stop Miss McGregor giving the history, but we I know I I know there's been a substantial amount of consular engagement and um and just given the limited time unless there's something distinct and unique to add. Minister, one of the central calls from Desiree and from Robert's family is this p this prosecution is largely being driven by the Iraqi Central Bank. Yet the Australian government is at the same time providing financial support and organizational support to the Iraqi Central Bank. And Desire's call, which I join her in, is to say, why won't the government say to the Iraqi Central Bank, unless you unless you stop the prosecution or say to the Iraqi government, unless the prosecution is stopped and Robert is freed, that assistance will cease. put that economic pressure and diplomatic pressure directly on Iraq.
we fund CBI uh as a in order to um further our interests in countering financing for terrorism uh and for transnational crime. Uh it's the only institution in Iraq that regulates cryptocurrencies. Uh and as evidenced by the recent uh arrest of Hazim Kazad, is that how I say it? >> Kazm I think it's Kazad. We we have shared interests.
>> Um I I I've join you in efforts to fight terrorism, but there must be other ways to apply those resources to fight terrorism in the region. and and and the words that Desiree raised with me this morning. Actually, I'll draw that. There must be other ways to fight terrorism [clears throat] um than funding the central bank, which is effectively persecuting an Australian >> is is it and the concern the concern that's raised is this Australian citizen is almost like a a a bargaining chip on the board, but he's a husband, he's a father, and he's an Australian citizen. And if not now, then when would we put that pressure on him?
>> Well, we have um engaged at length, including at the highest levels of the government in relation to Mr. Pa. So it is wrong to say uh that well any implication that we have not I I would dispute. So secondly uh I've explained to you what that funding is is for it is the only I've closed now closed my folder but I think it's the only entity that in um uh regulates cryptocurrency. uh and uh we do have an obligation to Australians in relation to the financing of terrorism to work with or with institutions uh to prevent that. Chair, I'm very sorry, Senator Sh. I'm going to have to >> understand. Thanks. >> It's been such a pleasure even if I am not funny.
>> well, well, Minister, what's coming to the table? I might just ask if if you could take on [laughter] I might ask if the secretary could take on notice what the financial arrangements are and the fundings are funding and other support is that Australia gives to the Iraqi central bank and if you could articulate that going back since 2021 when Robert was put in >> secretary um as I indicated I was going to ask some questions about Ranjit um Tambi Raja who has been detained by the Vietnam's Ministry of Public Security and has been in detention since October 2024. Um, I've been approached by legal representatives, Ranjit's legal representatives. They're deeply concerned about Ranjit's welfare. Um, and believe, I think, on reasonable basis that this is an example of arbitrary detention. um um and an improper use of of Vietnam's legal system to detain an Australian. Can you give any update on consular assistance and the state of Ranjit?
>> Um thank you Senator for your question. Um just to correct um the record, I understand Dr. Tharaja has been detained in Vietnam since October 2025. Um we are providing consular assistance to him. Uh we have consular access. Um we are um meeting with him uh regularly. Um his health and welfare are our highest priority. Uh his legal processes are ongoing. Um we are not able to intervene in the legal processes of another country. uh but we continue to provide that consular assistance to him in accordance with the um consular charter.
>> Have has the Australian government through its mission in Vietnam raised concerns about his lengthy detention without charge because it's my understanding he still hasn't been formally charged. Has those concerns been raised? Uh so we
understand his legal processes are ongoing. Uh we remain engaged with the Vietnamese authorities uh on his case and as I mentioned his health and welfare are our highest priority. Um and we raise uh any concerns with the Vietnamese authorities
as needed. Can you provide on notice the details of when such representations were made, the nature of the representations and any consular visits to Ranjit?
>> Uh certainly within privacy constraints, Senator.
I am going to move on to another matter now um which involves um Bangladesh and then I have a another brief matter involving Pakistan just so the officials are on notice. literally as we're having this hearing Bangladesh is about is commencing its election and I think there are many in the Bangladesh Australian community who are celebrating the chance of a free and fair election. Um and it is a country that is going to an election with the youngest I think electorate on the planet. Um but members of the Bangladesh Australia community have asked me to ask the Australian government um has the Australian government put in election monitors and what if any assistance has the Australian government given to the interim bank government in Bangladesh to ensure as best as we can this election
Senator Sarah Storey, First Assistant Secretary, South and Central Asia Division. Thank you very much for your question. This is a significant milestone election today as the people of Bangladesh seek to return to democratic and inclusive governance. Australia has been um following and monitoring the situation very closely um including close coordination with the interim government. Um we have provided uh 2 million to the United Nations ballot which is an acronym standing for the Bangladesh democratic general election support project. This uh has been focused on enhancing ability to deliver transparent elections and supporting long-term sustainability and reform. In terms of election observers, while there are no Australian observers, Senator, we have um committed uh some funding towards the Asia network for free elections and they have deployed some uh observers mainly from Southeast Asia.
>> How much went from how much funding went to the network
>> to Anfr. Um I might need to I can probably get that back to you today, Senator.
>> Um thanks. I'd appreciate that if you could story secretary um as Mtorias pointed out this is a historic opportunity for Bangladesh. >> Does Australia have any plans about what it can do at the conclusion of the election to support a young democracy and to provide support for Bangladesh? For example, many people in the Bangladesh community here are talking about a structured engagement with Bangladesh to increase bilateral trade and increase investment. Is any of is there any planning for that to help support a young democracy?
>> Thank you, Senator. In fact, we're already quite underway with uh that support. Um we're very conscious of the fact that the um the popular unrest that ousted the previous authoritarian regime was driven by youth uh with a deep sense of disaection and economic disenchantment
>> and bravery.
>> Yes indeed, Senator. Uh so we've been working with the interim government but also coordinating and in touch with um with B um one of the world's largest NOS's in fact uh around a program to orient our development assistance to Bangladesh um to try to uh to focus on some of those matters um such as inclusion um participation by youth and we've also sought to respond where possible within our uh development assistance program um to support Bangladesh interim government's um request for greater trade and investment. Um for instance, we've held um senior officials talks and trade and investment framework agreement talks. I led both of those in December last year in Dhaka.
>> Thanks Mor. We hopefully can come back to this as a good news story after the elections in next estimates. Um I do now have some questions about Pakistan and the high commission um in Pakistan. Is that again you miss my story? >> Um concerns have been raised with me by the Pakistan Australian community about a photograph taken with the Australian high commissioner in Pakistan and interior minister Mossin Naki. Mossin Naki is seen as overseen an extremely brutal security apparatus in Pakistan. response to these concerns? Because I share those concerns.
>> Senator, thank you for your question. Um we understand uh that there will be concerns within the very strong and proud 160,000 diaspora uh in Australia around such photographs. But I would say as the foreign minister has often said, we need to engage the world as it is, not as we would like it to be. Part of diplomacy is engaging the host government. And we've made no uh secret of the fact that we hold very serious concerns around what we see as a broad pattern of erosion of democratic [clears throat] governance in Pakistan. what what the
diaspora or what that part of the diaspora that's contacted me about this are so concerned about is they understand there may need to be meetings with people um who are exercising authority even if um we're appalled by some of their conduct. What they've raised concerns is about the photograph and the social media and the sharing of the photograph afterwards. um that they are concerned that that is the government giving legitimacy to the interior minister when they have very real concerns about the human rights record. Do you understand those concerns?
>> Yes, Senator, I do. I would also add um potentially some context that may be helpful for your constituents. Um we've had raised at estimates on several occasions before concerns around uh the forced deportations of Afghan citizens into Afghanistan by the government of Pakistan. Minister Nakvi is the minister responsible for that portfolio and so we need to engage with the minister constructively in order to raise our very serious interests. My my final
question on Pakistan is I think Imran Khan's family, his close associates and definitely his many many political supporters are deeply deeply concerned about his welfare um in continuing detention. Um uh will the Australian High Commission seek to get access to Imran Khan to independently check upon his welfare?
>> Senator, thank you for that. Um I would say in in relation to the last element of your question, we prioritize our assistance to Australians in terms of consular support. However,
>> just stop you there. Sorry. About 160,000 Pakistan Australians want to see Imran Khan safety um checked that that is important to Australians.
>> Senator, I can understand that concern. We hold very serious concerns around the very broad and clear pattern of the erosion of democratic governance in Pakistan. Um whether it be uh civil and political rights, democratic freedoms, electoral processes, judicial independence and human rights. And in relation to the case of um Imran Khan, former prime minister, we uh note the government of Pakistan's continued attempts to ban uh the main opposition party since uh they ousted him in 2022. in relation to this broader pattern of diminishing democratic space and uh in the case of former prime minister Khan, his wife, PTI leaders and many many party workers, we follow developments very closely and we regularly advocate that Pakistan adheres to rule of law and procedural fairness regarding its own constitution and uh it we um we note for instance even calls by the Pakistan bar association in support of um human rights. We've made 32 representations on human rights since the last election including on Prime Minister Khn but I note the um suggestion you have made around his welfare and uh we will consider what we may be able to do. All
right. Um question. >> Well, I have my final question is about the very final question for estimates is about some issues in relation to terror financing in the Philippines. It'll probably take about 5 minutes.
>> Well, I need to move the call along because I I thought you would have been wrapped up by now. That was all.
>> Could I just ask them briefly and see if we can get a brief
>> Yeah, maybe ask them and then we'll get a maybe a bulk response.
>> Cool. Um, Secretary, while the officials are coming forward, this is a question about Australia's financing, um, particularly the strengthening Philippine justice response to violent extremism program. There are very real concerns amongst the Philippine Australian community and it's they're shared by groups like Human Rights Watch that Australia's funding of that program in part is going to what the Philippines government call a crackdown on terrorism but actually is a process of red tagging where unionists, religious workers and journalists are being targeted by the Philippines government. The most concern, the most recent concern is about the sentencing of two Filipino journalists, young Filipino journalists, uh, Franchie May, uh, Kio and Mariel Domquil, who both received lengthy sentences for allegedly financing terrorism when in actual fact they were journalists um, seeking to expose um, the wrongs of the government. Is any of Australia's funding going to that red tagging? And in this case, the false tagging of journalists as terrorism, terrorists.
>> Uh, Senator, and I stand to be corrected, but I expect that such a specific question will have to take it on notice.
>> Well, could I perhaps you could respond. Has Australia made any rep? I'm happy for it to be taken on notice. Um, but has Australia made any representations to the Philippines government about the jailing of these two young journals? And I don't know if you saw any of the coverage of their sentencing, the young strong women, I think in their mid20s, they broke down into tears as they were sentenced to jail for the crime of being journalists. Have you made any representations to the Philippines
>> We'll have to take that on notice,
I expect that the uh embassy has but uh I think we should get you some details on notice.
>> All right. I note the chair done.
>> Okay. Thank you very much, Senator Now, Senator Henderson.
>> Thank you very much, Chair Secretary. And I know the chair covered off on a number of matters concerning the horrendous situation in Iran, but I just wanted to ask you some questions about uh the most current assessment of the situation in Iran. If you would just summarize that for the committee,
you you were after an assessment senator just the current situation in Iran
>> defense defat's current assessment of the situation in Iran as of today.
>> Well we are um obviously monitoring very closely the developments in Iran. Um as the minister has said previously earlier today, um we have expressed uh deep concern and at the um at the uh um killing of protesters and and unequivocally condemned the regime's brutal crackdown on its own people, including killing protesters, use of violence, arbitrary arrests, and its nationwide telecommunications blackout. Um these uh protests have continued since the 28th of December 2025 uh motivated um by anger over currency devaluations and decades of economic mismanagement and corruption. Those protests broke out in Tehran but quickly spread to other parts of the country. Um while the protests have largely now subsided, the uh there is a continuing uh concern uh that we have about the situation and obviously uh what has occurred since during the protests. Human rights observers estimate over 6,900 people have died. Over 11,600 further cases remain under review and over 11,000 ci civilians have been seriously injured. Nearly 51,000 people have been arrested. So that is a very serious situation. The government has been very vocal in our condemnation of that those actions and uh and very clear that we stand with the Iranian people against that such a regime. Uh we are gravely concerned [clears throat] by the horrific scale of brutality against innocent civilians and have called for an immediate end.
51,000 Iranians have been arrested.
>> And those are those are estimates obviously.
>> Have you got any estimate as to how many may possibly face execution?
>> Uh we don't uh I don't have that detail.
>> Mr. Griffith, are you able to >> provide any further information?
>> Yeah. No, Senator Paul Griffith from uh First Assistant Secretary of Middle East Africa Division. Um, no Senator, the only thing I'd really add to to Miss Sudu's um, testimony is is of course the the internet and telecom's black blackouts make it very difficult for us to >> to follow up and and sort of verify a lot of uh, a lot of the uh, the figures and those figures are changing. I'm not sure what date um, we have on those ones but those those figures are changing all
just want to ask about and Senator Sharma has some questions also but I just want to ask some questions about the autonomous sanctions regime. So on the 3rd of February uh the government announced a further 20 individuals and three entities were added to our autonomous sanctions regime. What was the criteria which was applied in determining which individuals and entities were listed?
Uh Julie Haer, Senator uh first assistant secretary of the re uh regulatory and legal policy division. The sanctions announced on the 3d uh of February recently were under our uh apologies just actually digging out the the details were under our Iran extended uh basically our extended sanctions criteria under our Iran uh framework.
>> So what's the evidentary threshold which applies? So what does the Australian government need to see by way of evidence to impose those new autonomous sanctions just curious as to what the process here given the extraordinarily complexity
>> uh including relation to bear with me and I'm going to give you the specific details of what is under the Iran sanctions. Uh so basically Australian autonomous sanctions framework for Iran uh the criteria are individuals or entities that have contributed to or is contributing to Iran's nuclear or missile programs has assisted or is assisting Iran to violate uh the uh UN resolutions. Um is engaging in is responsible for or complicit in or has engaged in been responsible for or been complicit in any of the following. The oppression of uh women and girls in Iran, the general oppression of people in Iran, undermining good governance or the rule of law in Iran is assisting or has assisted Iran to threaten or undermine the sovereignty or territorial integrity of another country is the specific criteria under the Iran
>> So it's fairly wide ranging in other words given what's going on in Iran.
>> Yes. uh uh and just earlier on here Senator the criteria was uh expanded in July 2023 before that it was limited to the first couple of criteria I mentioned which was the uh proliferation related ones the unskill ones and then uh the government expanded the Iran country criteria in July deliberately to cover that broader range. So are you
considering any further sanctions under the under the framework?
>> You'll be unsurprised to hear me say, Senator, that as in accordance with our usual practice, we don't comment or speculate on any potential sanctions.
>> So the government uh announced a joint statement with the foreign ministers of Canada and the European Union. Um minister, I know you're here in an acting capacity. Do you know which country initiated discussions lead leading to this statement or or to you
>> I don't know but the officials may
>> Um so are you referring to the 10 January 2026 um statement? So in that case the
>> sorry I thought it was yeah 10 January. Sorry I had I think I might have said 10 February. So I'm talking about the joint statement with the foreign ministers of Canada and the
>> Canada and the EU. Correct. Condemning the regime's killing of protesters and commending the bravery of the Iranian
>> Yes. So which country initiated that that statement?
>> I'll have to take that on notice, Senator.
>> Mr. Griffith, do you know?
>> No. No, we'll have to take it on notice,
>> Uh, so when did DEFAT first begin drafting or negotiating that statement?
We'll take that on notice, Senator.
>> And just what was the process involved in approving that statement? So, which minister or ministers were consulted uh or signed off uh with respect to Australia's participation?
>> Yeah, it's a ministerial statement. So, generally speaking, we would consult with relevant uh agencies if they if they they are affected. that otherwise we would um uh we would uh vet it and clear it through the system and obviously we always clear a statement through the minister before the minister signs on to a statement.
>> If you could just provide the details on notice, I'd be grateful.
>> Correct. Yeah. Fine.
>> And does the government intend to pursue further coordinated action with these partners in response to developments in Iran? Is there anything else in the
works? uh Senator uh you'll understand I uh I'm I'm not aware of that. I can't possibly speculate on what that might be. Uh we would consider each case as it
>> Secretary, you able to add to that?
>> Uh only to state the obvious, which is that we work closely with partners like the EU and Canada uh on Iran obviously and will continue to do so.
>> Uh thank you. Anything else you can provide on notice would be appreciated. Chair, do you mind if I just hand over to Senator Sharma who's got some >> Questions also on Iran.
>> Thanks, Chair. Afternoon,
>> Senator.
>> Nice to see you all. Um, I just wanted to understand and apologies if this has been covered before. I had a look at the transcript. Um, so I think I'm familiar with what was covered, but consular assistance um to Australians we might know of and I run. Obviously our embassy is closed or suspended operations. So are we working with um third country embassies that are still operational in country? What are the mechanisms we have to >> provide consular assistance and support
yes, evidence was given this morning by uh consular division on that, including reading into the transcript the cons consular emergency center phone numbers, which is the uh recommended uh first line of approach.
>> Did you wish to add something?
>> I could just repeat that
>> just to help level if you don't mind. I would appreciate it. I'm sorry I missed this morning's
>> well uh travel advice um which was most recently updated on the 27th of January this year uh advises Australians do not travel to Iran as and it Iran's been a do not travel destination since 2020. Uh we do that on the basis that the security situation in Iran is extremely volatile. We advise Australians to avoid public gatherings and protests. Uh and Australians uh including dual nationals are at high risk of uh being detained and arbitrary uh arbitrarily. Uh for Australians in Iran, uh we urge Australians to leave as soon as possible if it's safe to do so. Commercial flights are available, but we know that this could change at very short notice. If you if Australians decide to remain in Iran, we uh advise Australians to be prepared to shelter in place for an extended period. As you've mentioned, Senator, the Australian embassy's operations in Iran are suspended and so our ability to provide consular services in Iran is extremely limited. Many embassies um uh have have left Iran. many of our partner agents, partner embassies and like-minded embassies. There are some that are still operating there, but in the end, we do encourage uh Australians who require um uh consular assistance to contact the 24-hour consular emergency center in the first instance. And I can repeat the phone numbers for you if you like.
>> That's okay. If you've got it in hand, that's fine. Do we have an estimate of the number of Australians in Iran or are there Australians in Iran who've registered through Smart Traveler or through the crisis center helpline or other means?
we do I think it's a small number. I'll have to take that on notice. It's not a large number
>> like in the hundreds or
>> uh it could be in the hundreds or the low thousands.
>> Okay. All right. Thank you. Um and if um uh if people in Australia have concerns about fellow citiz Australian citizens or residents who are in Iran, um obviously they should contact the crisis center in the first instance. >> That's right. >> How are you able to um I mean I know it's a very difficult operating environment. So I don't have high expectations, but what are you able to do in that situation to try and ascertain safety or whereabouts or those sorts of things?
um uh our ability to do that is very limited. You're correct, Senator, that we we would advise Australians who are making inquiries to contact the consular emergency center if they're unable to contact people directly. However, the telecommunications blackout has made communications very difficult. Uh so um so that's the basis of our consular advice which is to say we have extremely limited ability to provide consular assistance or to uh contact people or to seek um u information.
>> Okay. Thank you. Thanks chair.