Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 7:11:45 to 7:32:30
Inquiry into Ambassador Kevin Rudd's term in the United States and potential future international roles.
Topics: Public service staffing, DFAT
Speakers: Hon Penny Wong, Hon Sarah Henderson, Jan Adams AO PSM, Unknown Speaker, Raff Ciccone, Speaker 10, Speaker 26
>> All right, welcome back. Um, the Australian Center for International A Research is now been released. The committee's also agreed to release the agency. So, thank you for making attendance today. Sorry we couldn't get to you. Um, now, Senator Henderson, I'll give you the call.
>> Thank you, Chair. Minister, on the 13th of January, 2026, you announced that Kevin Rudd would conclude his term as ambassador at the end of March 26. It's been widely reported that he was leaving his post a year early. Just to clarify, when was Mr. Rudd's original term
might get the secretary to answer.
>> Uh, Senator, normal diplomatic postings are are 3 to four years. I think the uh expectation was that Ambassador Rudd would most likely serve four, but uh it for various circumstances that have been explained publicly. Uh it it will now be three years.
>> And so what was the original date when he was when his term was up?
>> Do you have the exact date?
sometime in February and
>> February 2027. If you could just come back to us with the exact date, that would be terrific. On notice, of course. Uh what was the reason that Mr. Rudd finished his term early?
Uh Senator, I think that has been uh put in the public domain by uh the government and that's the situation.
>> I'm aware of the media release uh but I don't know that it spelt out the reasons.
>> We did a media release and we did a press conference where the full press pack could ask us questions for prime minister and the prime minister myself in the courtyard. So, I think we've gone through it in detail. Um, sorry, I've just been trying to do with something else.
>> No, that's okay. Look, I'm for the benefit of this committee. Uh, if you could just inform us why Mr. Rod left his is concluding his term early.
>> Well, I'm I'm not going to uh amplify the the uh comments that have been made publicly by the Prime Minister and uh the foreign minister. uh the position at the Asia Society in New York um became available.
>> Yeah. So, so I'm sorry. I um was just looking for the press release that I put uh as we said uh the position of global president of the Asia Society uh came up. Um Mr. Rudd decide, Ambassador Rudd decided that he would conclude his posting to accept that role. Uh uh I am again record our thanks to to Ambassador Rudd for his tireless work uh and he uh has achieved a great many outcomes in the role uh and to the benefit of Australia
>> and while I appreciate and I'm looking at your release minister of the 13th of January while I appreciate you've set up what Mr. right is doing next. He's accepted this role with Asia Society. Uh what was the precise reason that he left his role as ambassador early was
>> I just answered that.
>> Well, I'm just wondering though I understand he's accepted this. No, no.
He wanted to accept the role as of the Asia Society and he al he's also prop he's going to head the society for China analysis and as you would probably know Mr. R is one of the world's foremost experts uh on China US
relations. So it didn't have anything to do with the difficulties in the relationship with the president of the United States and what unfolded last
Uh the rel the meeting with the president and the prime minister went extremely well and that was in great part due to the work of Kevin Rudd. So uh the premise of your question is
>> Well, I'm asking about the reflection that the president made on uh Mr. Rod, the the incident that happened during that press conference.
>> No, the reason Mr. Rod left is as I've
>> When did you last speak with Mr. Rudd prior to his announcement?
>> Oh, I'd have to take that on notice. I I obviously there there's a quite a lot going on in the rel, you know, in terms of the new administration. Well, not it's not that the the Trump admin, President Trump's administration. Um we engage regularly with him.
sorry Minister
>> No, that's fine.
>> Uh so he obviously was previously the head of the Asia Society in 2021 to 23. So he's gone back to the role that he did prior to becoming the ambassador. Did he ever express to you that he was unhappy as ambassador to the United States and he wanted to return to this
role? I don't disclose personal conversations, but I you I know and I you I'm disappointed that you want go about it this way, Senator. Mr. Rod, um if we could just possibly leave partisanship aside, uh he is an outstanding diplomat. uh and uh he as a former prime minister brought great weight and heft to that position. Uh and uh particularly at a time where we saw um not only not only with the last administration but a change in administration uh he was instrumental in ensuring uh that uh the [clears throat] uh meeting with the president and the prime minister went well. He's delivered concrete outcomes both under the Democrat and Republican administration. Uh he secured congressional authority for legislation for the Orcus um agreement uh with full bipartisans support. he um the critical minerals announcement that the prime minister and the president made was uh u driven in great part by him along with um people here in CRA as well across the across government. Uh we have a critical technology agreement he was uh part of uh he he worked to deliver something that Mr. Hockey had said he would work on, but it was Kevin Rudd who actually delivered it, which is the Global Entry and Transport Security Administration services for Australian travelers into the US. These are some of the concrete examples. Senator
>> Minister, I just want to take issue with your characterization of my question and in fact when that incident occurred last October and the president of the United States said as part of that conversation, I don't like you either and I probably never will. After that occurred, I did a radio interview and I actually said strongly that it was a very important team Australia moment. I never called for Mr. Rudd to leave early. So I just want to put that on
there. >> I accept that you you if you did I wasn't aware of that. Sorry Senator I don't follow you that you do a lot of trans I may say but I didn't I don't follow all of them but if you did then kudos to you because I actually think >> uh a little less partisanship from some on your side on the US relationship would be a good thing for the country.
>> Of course I did reveal that Mr. Miles and Mr. Farrell had met with Mr. Conroy last year and they were discussing the prospect of Mr. Rod Reed um leaving. Now I'm not going to draw you into that. I'm not
>> Well, I think but they were discussing >> Sorry, Senator I think Senator Farrell has very clear publicly about refuting that proposition.
>> No, he didn't refute it. >> He just he just didn't address it.
>> I'm not sure that's
>> Sorry. No, he certainly didn't refute it. But in any event, I certainly made some comments about that meeting and there were others who were perhaps anxious to see Mr. Rudd depart early. But in any event, I just want to set the record straight. But just going back to the resignation, given the record of achievement as you just described, uh did this resignation come as a
I understood why he wanted to uh go to what is quite a prestigious position. uh and we discussed and he and the prime minister obviously discussed you know his preferred timing we've announced I think a very effective
Yes, as we certainly farewell Mr. Moriarty yesterday and uh I endorse that minister secretary when did you as the secretary of the department become aware that Mr. Rod
>> Uh Senator shortly before the announcement exactly when I can't recall but shortly before.
Could you take that on notice just to provide us with the details of when the department was told? >> Uh thank you. And did this information come from is that through the minister or was it through the embassy? How did that come about? The notice of the resignation?
>> I can't recall. I have [clears throat] to take it on notice.
>> Was was there any discussions with the
Uh I was not discussing it with the prime minister's office.
>> Uh minister, were there any discussions with the prime minister or anyone else in an attempt to ask Mr. Rod to continue to
Mr. Rod determined uh the time frame for his resignation uh and that was agreed.
Uh it was widely reported that Mr. Rod may run to be the secretary general of the United Nations. Is that something that is on the cards or have you discussed this matter with
>> I think Mr. writers has refuted that publicly too, but obviously you all persist in asking questions notwithstanding that.
>> Well, I have
>> I would say I can't add to that answer
because I haven't seen that. So, I can certainly take you on your word for that. >> Yes. Sorry, Minister. Go on.
I think the the point that has been made publicly is that uh there is a an informal regional kind of um not allocation what's >> for secretary generals there's often a a a you within the UN as I understand it about which who rotation between regions >> America >> someone can help me >> and I might just Robinson will actually be able to explain that more clearly I'm getting tired I'm not clear please go
>> Angela Robinson first assistant secretary multilateral policy and human rights division Um yes minister there's sort of a convention that the representation will circle between regional groups and the uh Latin American and Caribbean group hasn't been secretary general since the
>> So if Mr. Rod I understand that you've provided information that he's refuted that he's going to run as the secretary general of the UN. Um but if he was to either change his mind or persist with that is that something that the Alani government would support.
>> Oh dear. Okay. So chair that's a complete hypothetical. So if this and if this and if this >> hypotheticals are May I finish?
>> Hypotheticals are permitted in Senate estimates.
>> Actually no. but the point is
>> not during a normal hearing, but in Senate estimates, I'm not prohibited from asking hypothetical questions.
>> I don't know there's much point in answering because she just keeps interrupting me. So, I'm just going to >> Uh I'm uh we have told you that Mr. Rod has um publicly said that's not the case. Uh and M. Robertson has told you that the rotation convention would suggest that the rotation this year is for Latin America. So I think that is the answer to your question.
>> It's not on the cards.
>> It's not on the cards.
>> Were there any discussions about whether your government might support Mr. Rod running as the secretary general of the United Nations?
>> This this is
matters of great interest, Minister.
>> No. Well, I would say this is a um I don't know where this story came from. Put it that way.
>> Right. >> Okay. But can I
>> It's not It's not It's not It it it is not something that um I understand to be on the cards. So
>> So So there's no contemplation that the government would support Mr. Rod's nomination if he was. So far inclined. >> No, you didn't answer whether the government would support it. I understand it's a hypothetical question.
>> It's not on the cards.
>> It's been suggested to me that Mr. Rudd sought an extra year in the role as ambassador. So he was actually seeking to extend his role by a year. is did that occur or or where were there any discussions along
The the timing of uh Ambassador Rudd's conclusion of his term was a decision of three solid years uh covering a presidential election and the first year of a a very active new Trump administration. Uh it's been a remarkable uh record of achievement as has been outlined several times. and uh the decision to uh take accept the role of the global president uh of the Asia society uh was a decision taken by Ambassador Rudd.
>> No, I appreciate that, Secretary, but what I was actually asking was did Mr. Rudd ever seek an additional year of his term? because that was my precise question.
Well, uh he's completed a three-year term. That's a big effort. Uh and I applaud him for what he has done.
>> Could you answer my specific question, though? Did he seek to add an extra year to his term?
this is I um I would take on notice. I I thought that we had actually
>> well the four years is
>> I think I think we already had indicated and this might be public uh uh a fourth >> So that that had already been determined which underscores the fact that Mr. Rod made a decision that he wanted to >> move on.
>> Yes. This is a separate question. This is about whether prior to his resignation did he ever seek to extend his term from four years to 5 years.
>> Well, we'd already extended it. That's my recollection. Um I don't remember if that was public, but
>> do you recall whether he sought to extend his term by an additional year?
>> The we had already been extended to four.
>> Yeah.
>> No, I appreciate that. My question, Minister, did Mr. Rudd seek to extend his term to five years?
>> Senator, the question wouldn't have come up in a in a sort of defat sense because >> 3 years is normal. An extension of one year to four years uh is sometimes granted or requested, sometimes requested and and [clears throat] sometimes approved by the government. Uh so we would not have been in the would there be a further extension after the four years territory. That's not a normal DEFAT uh approach.
>> No, no, I appreciate that. But what I'm asking is did Mr. Rudd seek to extend his term to 5 years? I'm not suggesting that this is an ordinary
>> Well, I'm just saying
>> an ordinary appointment. I'm just asking specifically did Mr. Rudd seek to extend his term to 5 years.
>> Uh Senator, what I'm saying to you is that that question wouldn't have arisen because the fourth year was still ahead of us.
>> So is that a no? So he didn't seek to extend by another year.
>> What I'm saying to you is that the question wouldn't have arisen.
Well, I don't know whether it's arisen or not, but it's been suggested to me that he did seek.
anybody you might know? Anything?
>> I'm I'm not at liberty to say that, Minister, other than I'm actually asking I'm actually asking the the question, did Mr. Rudd seek to extend his term to 5 years?
>> Um, that'll be the last question now.
>> Yeah. Look, um, as the secretary has explained, the initial appointment was for 3 years. You can extend for four. My recollection, and I I will check this on notice, Senator, is that we had already made the decision to [clears throat] extend for a year. Obviously, you know, you wouldn't get into any conversation about what's what happens after that. Um,
>> so you're still in the third year. No, >> so Minister, you're not willing to address that particular question. You
can't answer the question.
>> That's not true. Okay, I'm giving up.
>> I try to I try to be helpful. I And you [laughter] try to be helpful.
>> You're helpullfully not answering the question.
>> So, Senator, I've finished my answer.
>> Minister, I have got more questions, but I'm happy to share the call obviously.
>> Okay.
>> Thank you.
>> Anyone else want the call? >> Okay. Hello, Senator Shouri. You have