Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 0:00 to 51:08
Formal opening of the hearing followed by initial questioning regarding the tragic methanol poisoning incident in Laos.
Topics: DFAT, Public safety
Speakers: Jan Adams AO PSM, Hon Michaelia Cash, Hon Penny Wong, Elizabeth McGregor, Raff Ciccone, Hon Sarah Henderson, Kate Smith, Michelle Chan
It was freezing yesterday. >> It was freezing yesterday. Fresh air.
>> Well, I was going to say, don't you have >> All right. Well, we might need two signatures for it. Who knows? On that note, good morning everyone. I'd like to declare open this meeting of the Senate Foreign Affairs, Defense, and Trade Legislation Committee. I want to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which we are meeting today and pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging. The Senate has uh referred to the committee the particulars of the proposed expenditure for the 2025 26 and other related documents for the foreign affairs, defense, and trade portfolios. The committee may also examine the annual reports of the departments and agencies appearing before it. The committee is also due to report to the Senate on the 31st of March of this year. The committee has set the 20th of Febru February uh 2026 as the deadline for senators to submit written questions on notice. The committee has set the 10th of April 2026 as the date for the return of answers to questions taken on Under standing order 26, the committee must take all evidence in public session and this includes answers to questions on notice. I remind all witnesses that in giving evidence to the committee, they are protected by parliamentary privilege. It is unlawful for anyone to threaten or disadvantage a witness on account of evidence given to a committee and such action may be treated by the Senate as a contempt. It is also a contempt to give false or misleading evidence to a committee. The Senate has endorsed the following test of relevance of questions at estimates hearings. Any questions going to the operations or financial positions of the departments and agencies which are seeking funds in the estimates are relevant questions for the purpose of estimates hearings. I remind officers that the Senate has resolved that there are no um that that there are no areas in connection with the expenditure of public funds where any person has a discretion to withhold details or explanations from the parliament or its committees unless the parliament has expressed has expressly provided otherwise. The Senate has resolved that an officer of a department of the Commonwealth shall not uh be gi asked to give opinions on matters of policy and shall be given reasonable opportunity to refer questions asked to a superior officer or to a minister. This resolution prohibits only questions asking for opinions on matters of policy and does not preclude questions asking for explanations of policies or factual questions about when and how policies were adopted. And I draw attention of witnesses to an order of the Senate of the 13th of May 2009 specifying the process by which a claim of public interest immunity should be raised and which I'll incorporate now into the hand Witnesses are specifically reminded that a statement claiming that information or a document is confidential or consists of advice to government is not a statement that meets the requirements of the 2009 order. Instead, witnesses are required to articulate the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or the Uh, an officer called upon for the first time to answer a question should state their full name and the position for the handside record. And a good reminder just to ensure that all mobile phones are switched off or turned to silent. I remind senators and witnesses uh in the hearing room um that microphones remain live unless I instruct otherwise. I remind senators of their obligations under the behavior code for parliamentarians to treat witnesses with dignity, courtesy, fairness, and respect. I ask members of the media to follow the established media guidelines and the instructions of the committee secretariat. I remind everyone in the gallery that they are not permitted to speak or interfere with the proceedings or witnesses at any point during the he the Witnesses and senators who are seeking to table documents during the committee's hearings are requested to provide an electronic copy of those documents to the secretariat so they can be circulated to the committee and witnesses at the table. On that note, uh today's uh committee proceedings will commence with representatives from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in the non-trade programs. Uh I'd like to now welcome the Senator, the Honorable Penny Wong, Minister for Foreign Affairs. Good >> Uh, Miss Jane Adams, AO PSM, Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Good morning, Secretary. >> And, uh, good morning to all your officers who are behind you. Um, Minister, did you have an opening statement?
>> I do, chair.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you very much. Uh, well, chair, senators, good morning. We meet almost two months after the 14th of December, 2025, a day when Islamist inspired terror came to Australia's shores. an anti-semitic attack and the deadliest terrorist attack on our na in our nation's history, murdering four innocents and injuring dozens more men, women, and children. An attack on our community and on our nation, on every Australian. And our hearts break for the families and loved ones of those who were killed and for the communities so deeply affected. Uh and we say again to the Australian Jewish community that the Australian government stands with you and that there is no place for anti-semitism or hate in this country. Colleagues, I spoke earlier this week in Pmancy estimates about the government's responses to the Bondai massacre and about our commitment to combating anti-semitism, but I did want today to take the opportunity to update the committee on the international response to this devastating event. Uh the shock and grief from this terror attack have been felt around the world and I have had many calls and messages from my counterparts who have reached out in horror and heartbreak on at this attack on Australia. And I want to put on record my gratitude on behalf of our country to my counterparts who have been in touch offering solidarity, compassion and their thoughts to Jewish Australians and to all Australians. In the weeks following the attack, I spoke to counterparts from Israel, Canada, India, Japan, New Zealand, the Philippines, Slovakia, South Africa, Ukraine, the United Kingdom, and the United States. We worked on the consular response and with other agencies and our overseas partners on the counterterrorism response. Uh we also worked to facilitate the return of Geffen Bitten, one of the heroes of Bondi to Israel for medical treatment. Can I place on record my thanks to officials of the department who worked through uh the Christmas period uh uh in order to ensure that the government's response uh was supported. We have this week welcomed Israel's President Herdog to Australia to comfort those in the Jewish Australian community grieving and as an opportunity to engage on long-term peace and security in the Middle East. In addition to the humanitarian situation in Gaza, there have been a range of grave developments in the Middle East. Since we last met in December, the Iranian regime has massacred thousands of Iranians whilst attacking and arresting many thousands more for participating in peaceful protest. The regime has imposed nationwide internet and telecommunication blackouts in an attempt to conceal the scale of its brutality. Australia has imposed further sanctions on Iran to underscore our commitment to the people of Iran and our opposition to the regime's egregious campaign of oppression and destabilization. I again reiterate we stand with the Iranian Australian community at this difficult time and we share their horror at the atrocities and we acknowledge the immense distress of those still not able to reach loved ones to confirm their The people of Afghanistan are enduring one of the world's worst protracted humanitarian crises exa exacerbated by the Taliban's impression of its own people and failure to meet basic needs. Together with the Minister for International Development uh an Ali we have announced further humanitarian support focused on women and girls prioritizing food security, health services and the protection of dignity, safety and rights. This is a package that will be delivered by trusted agencies including the World Food Program and the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs Afghanistan Humanitarian Fund. This is to ensure that funding does not go to nor benefit the Taliban. It follows the establishment by the government of an autonomous sanctions framework for Afghanistan as part of our ongoing efforts to hold the Taliban to account. Globally, Australia will continue to make our contribution. We will do this as part of multilateral efforts to protect civilians, provide humanitarian assistance, and uphold international law and human rights. And we do this because we believe that living in peace should not be contingent upon where you were But as this committee is well aware, the world is only becoming more challenging. We approach the fourth year of Russia's illegal and immoral invasion of Ukraine. We have long known that Australia cannot rely on old assumptions. Since we came to office, the government has been working to make Australia more secure in a much less predictable world. At the heart of that effort is diversifying our relationships which with what I have called amplified middle power diplomacy. For more than three years, we've been pursuing new alignments and maximizing how we work with others to better promote and protect our national interests. Middle powers must keep working together for a world where no country dominates and no country is dominated. Logically, this effort must be focused on our region where Australia's interests are most at stake. Our overriding responsibility as a middle power of the Indo-Pacific is to support peace, stability, and prosperity in our region. And the government continues to focus on our region and on our relationships. Since we last met here, I've traveled to Indonesia with the prime minister to sign sign the historic Australia Indonesia Treaty on Common Security, known as the Jakarta Treaty 2026, taking the close cooperation between our countries to a new level. And I acknowledge uh and thank uh President Babaua and foreign minister Sukiona uh for their partnership and for uh their gracious hospitality. I made my third visit to Washington in 20 of 2025 where the deputy prime minister and I participated in the Osman meetings with secretaries Rubio and Hegith. Further during his visit to Timolestee in January, the prime minister signed with prime minister Gushmal our groundbreaking Paceria joint declaration establishing a new partnership for a new area. And we have been so pleased to welcome to Australia the president and foreign minister of the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the president of Palao, the prime ministers of Solomon Islands and Tonga, the secretary general of the Pacific Islands Forum and the foreign minister of Germany. All of these efforts are directed towards our guiding purpose to help assure the region we want. A region in balance in which sovereignty is respected. A region that is peaceful, stable, and prosperous where countries large and small have the freedom to decide their futures. And I want to acknowledge the remarkable work of Secretary Adams and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and all its officers here and in the network around the world for their efforts in supporting Australia's place in the Finally, chair, I want to update the committee in relation to the heartbreaking deaths of Holly BS and Bianca Jones by by methanol poisoning in Lao. Holly and Bianca should be with us today. They should be looking back on a trip full of wonderful memories, but they are not. And our hearts go out to their loved ones and to their friends. They are mourning a terrible loss. And recent events have added to their heartbreak. Since their deaths, I've been clear with the low authorities of the need for transparency and for accountability. And we have consistently conveyed our expectations that charges should reflect the seriousness of the tragedy that killed Holly, Bianca, and four other foreign nationals. And we will continue to do so. To that end, this week I've appointed Mr. Pablo Kung as special envoy to continue our efforts for progress in the investigation of the deaths of these young Australians and he will depart for LA as soon as possible this week. I thank the committee and I look forward to our discussion.
>> Thanks very much, Minister. you're happy to table it. Thank you very much. Um, Secretary, do you have an opening statement?
>> Uh, with your indulgence. >> Thank you, uh, chairs. Senator, thank you for the opportunity to provide an opening statement. We meet in the aftermath of the horrific anti-semitic terrorist attack at Bondi Beach. In addition to the foreign minister's international outreach, DEFAT has supported diplomatic missions in providing consular support to their nationals impacted and we provided practical support for victims and for families who needed to travel to Our posts overseas hosted memorial ceremonies and opened condolence books to help people grieve and show their support and respect for the victims. DEFAD is committed to cooperating fully with the Royal Commission on Anti-semitism and Social Cohesion. There is no place in Australia for anti-semitism, racial hatred or This week we have supported Israeli Israeli president Herzog's visit to Australia during which he is honoring the victims of the Bondi terrorist attack and providing family providing comfort to the families and to the Jewish community. Senators, as I have said in previous committee hearings, Australia is having to deal with a deteriorating security environment. Events in just the last few months expose an international system under pressure. We face greater unpredictability from sharpening geostrategic competition and challenging and challenges to existing rules and norms. The pace of change and disruption is accelerating and the risks for our national security and economic resilience can't be underestimated. On the other hand, Australians can be confident we are working effectively with agility to navigate this uncertainty. As a middle power, we are not just seeking to adapt to this less stable world. We're seizing every opportunity to shape it for the better. First, our priority remains our region. We are pushing forward with a series of groundbreaking agreements that bind us closer to our neighbors in Southeast Asia and in the Pacific through shared interests and a shared stake in each other's future. This architecture includes the treaty on common security with Indonesia, the Jakarta treaty signed by the prime minister last week. A watershed moment in the relationship with our most important neighbor. It also includes agreements we are progressing with Vanuatu, Fiji and Tonga. The department supported the prime minister's visit to Tim Mostee, the first foreign leader to visit since Tim became a member of Azen last October. During the visit, uh, the two leaders established the historic Paseria agreement. Reflecting the importance of our agenda with the Pacific, we have hosted four Pacific leaders in just the last fortnight. As the minister said, we welcomed again Solomon Islands Prime Minister Manelli, Paloan President Whips, and received the Tongan Prime Minister for his first overseas visit. We welcomed Prime Minister President, excuse me, President Heine for the first visit by a Marshal President in 30 years. Senators, we are also strengthening Australia's major strategic partnerships in this 50th anniversary of the Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation with Japan. We will further elevate all aspects of our special strategic partnership. We are getting on with this important agenda with the Takahichi government returned with a resounding majority in last Sunday's election. Japan Japan is a crucial partner for Australia. A partner that makes a positive and strong contribution to stability, development, and prosperity in our region. Australia supports Japan Japan's efforts to maintain dialogue with China to deescalate tensions in support of regional stability and international law while also opposing economic coercion. In December last year, we used the 40th anniversary of the Australia United States Ministerial Consultations known as OSMIN to strengthen our alliance and ORCUS activities. As the committee will be aware, Ambassador Rudd will conclude his posting to the United States of America at the end of March. And I want to take this opportunity to record my own and the department's deepest thanks for his effectiveness and energy in delivering outcomes for Australia. Ambassador designate Greg Moriarty is of course eminently placed to progress our national interest in the United States We are also preparing to strengthen our long-standing partnership with Canada and when Prime Minister Chaney visits Australia. Right now, our thoughts are with our Canadian friends in grief following the tragic school shooting in British Senators, it's crucial that we stand with Ukraine as Russia's invasion of Ukraine grinds into its fifth year. We recently announced a further $10 million to the Ukraine energy support fund, building on the $95 million package of defense capability support announced in December. We support all efforts to achieve a lasting peace in Ukraine that upholds Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial senators to best position Australian exporters for international uncertainty and shocks. We are focused on trade diversification and resilience building measures. We are implementing our new FTA with the UAE strengthening our trade partnerships with India and regionally through the CPTP and PAS plus with the European Union. We are working to complete a comprehensive and balanced deal to bring whole of economy benefits to Australia. Uh chair, allow me to finish on our consular services. The department is deeply committed to providing consular services with the greatest care to Australians in their time of need. The latest consular state of play launched this month shows the department provided consular assistance and crisis support in over 26,000 cases in financial year 202425. DEFAT's 247 emergency center answered more than 61,500 calls for help. Uh this is complex and challenging work and our services consistently rank the highest amongst commonwealth agency government agencies in levels of public trust and satisfaction. We have acknowledged our recent communication with the families of Holly Morton BS and Bianca Jones regarding legal process in Laos concerning a US citizen in similar circumstances fell short of these high standards. We remain deeply committed to supporting Holly's and Bianca's parents in their pursuit of justice for Holly and Bianca and we're making further senior representations to the Lao government in support of that mission. Thank you chair senators for your indulgence.
>> Thanks secretary and I'm assuming you're happy to also table your opening remarks. Thank you. Okay, I'm going to hand over to Senator Cash to start off
today. Uh thank you very much chair and thank you for those opening statements. Uh secretary if I could just uh commence with questions in relation to what you addressed at the end of your statement uh which is the deaths of Holly and Biana. Uh can I ask in terms of the trials that have recently taken place uh in Lao on what date did the trials take place?
Uh, Senator, I will ask colleagues to assist the committee on those specific dates.
>> Senator, uh, Elizabeth McGregor, first assistant secretary of the consular and crisis management division. the trial um outcome was delivered on the 29th of January.
>> Uh yes, I understand that and that is the outcome of the trial. My question was in relation to on what date did the trials take place?
>> Uh Senator, I think we need to start a little bit before and clarify the different cases that are on foot.
Um, yes. Thank you, Secretary. Um, so the case on the 29th of January related to the death of a US citizen. >> Uh, not to the deaths of Holly. >> Yep. >> Um, and of course, the secretary has offered an apology to the families for not keeping them fully informed of the outcome of the US case. Our focus remains the Lao investigation relating to Holly and Biana's deaths. Um on 10th of February, Lao authorities confirmed to us that the CA case relating to their deaths is still under legal process and has not been completed. I've relayed that information to the families yesterday. That information relating to Holly and Bianca's case resulted from an escalation of our efforts in the leadup to the 29th of January hearing into the US case and subsequent to that to seek clarification on what that US case and its outcomes meant for the Australians.
Uh look, thank you. Could we just work through that because obviously there's been media reporting and it's caused a lot of distress in particular I think it has been acknowledged uh to the families and the secretary could I just confirm secretary you offered the apology to the families.
Uh I did Senator uh on the basis that uh we had been working very hard to keep the families informed uh of what we knew on the various legal processes underway in in Lao PDR. Uh and uh unfortunately in terms of the the actual sentencing outcome uh there was a a [music] delay in in our communication with the families. And uh my heart breaks that the families learned of these verdicts through their own >> networks and not not through us when we had been working so hard to keep them informed of what we could find out from the the LA system.
>> Was the apology a written apology? Was it a a phone call apology verbally given?
>> Uh Senator, I wrote a letter.
>> Okay. Um, when did you write the letter?
>> 9th of January.
>> The 9th of January.
>> Oh, sorry. February.
>> 9th of February. That's fine. So, >> the 9th of J the 9th of February. Um, is it possible to get a copy of that on notice, please? I don't
>> Oh, Senator, I think it's it's private it's private uh communication. Uh, nevertheless, uh, we also issued a public statement.
>> You Okay, the public statement. Thank you. Um, [clears throat] have you personally spoken to the families?
>> Uh, I personally have not. Uh, the the ongoing contacts are with the consular um officers and the head of a consular division.
>> Minister, have you spoken with the families since this occurred?
>> Yes,
>> you have. Thank you. Can I ask on what
So when I became aware of what had occurred, I called um both families >> y >> um personally uh to offer my apologies that at the distress that had been caused by the fact they'd heard through other channels. I was not able I didn't get hold of one of the families. I think it was during a um estimates break. I spoke to uh um the other family and I said I'd been trying to reach um uh both families and um uh she said she would also pass on what I had said.
>> No, and thank you for that. Could could I just go back then to obviously there's been the media reporting. Uh I'd like to just explore what was right and what was wrong in the media reporting. So the trials concluded on the 29th of January, but that was the trial in relation to the death of the US citizen.
>> Yes, that's correct, Senator.
>> Thank you. So in relation to, as you said, the trials um of Holly and Bianca, they are still
>> Can I just Can I just ask um I think Oh, sorry. I think the actual charge as I understand it was in relation to um an evidentiary point. >> Sorry. So >> Yeah. It's a it was not um so your question was not quite accurate. So perhaps Ms. McGregor or Miss Chan can someone at the table could perhaps clarify what the legal case that was. I
would. Yeah, because obviously the M the media reporting in a recent court case, 10 local workers from the Nardac Peekers hostel, the accommodation linked uh to the incident were convicted only of destroying evidence and fin $185 each and given suspended sentences. Was that in relation only to the US citizen or does that also encompass Holly and Bianca?
Senator, the charges were in relation to the US citizen and specifically the tampering of evidence. I understand the workers removed the body and took it to a hospital um and in that sense um they were accused of interfering with this with the crime scene.
>> Okay. Uh and obviously this is a very delicate matter. So what we're treating with with the deepest of respect to the
appreciate if perhaps an official could tell me if this is correct, but as I understand the advice to me is that the charge related to um destruction of or um unlawful handling of evidence. >> Y >> um not there wasn't a charge of manslaughter or or something similar. So that that
>> but again to the US citizen
>> to the US citizen
>> as opposed to
>> can someone confirm that I think I'm right
>> I can confirm that was >> so can I then ask in terms of the status the cases against Holly and Biana sorry in relation to Holly and Bianca what is the current status of those cases
>> I might let my colleague Michelle Chan answer that.
deputy secretary, South and Southeast Asia Group. Um, our focus ma remains on the Lao investigation into the cases of Holly and Bianca. And on the 10th of February, the Lao authorities confirmed to us that the case relating to their deaths is still under the legal process and has not been completed. So, it's still underway.
>> Okay. So, it is still underway.
>> That's correct.
>> Right. Can I ask what the exact nature of the charges
>> That my understanding Senator is that is still in process. That is part of the legal process that is still underway.
Just in terms then of what occurred and it has been referred to um as a breakdown. if we could just explore the breakdown. was DEFAT aware of the trial against um, the US citizen?
>> Uh, Senator, yes, we were aware and I'll ask Miss McGregor to detail the communications that or the the uh, timeline of the communications that had been undertaken with the families in that regard. Uh before I do that, could I also add uh re your previous question uh that we dealing with a civil law system in Lao? So >> uh the question of which what charges etc come at a different point in the system than under our
>> they're now under our legal system. Yes.
>> Yes. the investigations are underway in within the prosecutor's office and the ministry of public security and then of and then when it's when they're uh at the point where they can uh formulate the charges and and take to court then we will know precisely. So, uh, I just I'm I know you understand that, but it's for the different system.
>> Uh, so, Senator, um, I can give a little bit more information, and I might preface it by saying that we're continuing to prioritize, um, timely and accurate updates to the families. We've contacted them at least 12 times uh since we became aware of the case relating to the US citizen um and we became aware of that case on the 14th of January um we informed them on that same day um that that case was moving to court.
>> Okay. In terms of becoming aware on the 14th of January, what was the process or the timeline in relation to when the charges were first laid um etc against the the the the 10 local workers in relation to the US
So, Senator, we became aware through our contacts in at post uh in Ventan on the 14th of January. Um, and that advice was confirmation that the case had moved to allow domestic court. The same day I emailed the families to advise them that those 10 cases had moved to the court um with charges related to the destruction of evidence. I also said we were seeking urgent meetings in Laos to clarify
>> and just in terms of um the mission uh who's responsible in DEFAT both in country but back in Australia for monitoring the trial um even in relation to other citizens obviously not Holly and Bianca um through to ensure that the parents are kept updated of developments
So our post in Vienn is um very focused on the matter uh and they are monitoring developments um and reaching out constantly to contacts uh in the LA system for updates. My colleague Michelle Chan um can speak a little bit more to those efforts.
Uh so senator this is a very high priority for our embassy in Bentan from our ambassador ambassador Jones uh down through our um polical and economic team as well as our consular team. So they're um giving a lot of attention to this matter and um our ambassador has made a number of representations to convey our concerns and our expectations of a thorough and transparent investigation uh to various um authorities in the Lao
system. Um, was that post 29th of January when the trial against the US citizen concluded or prior to that?
>> It's been a big focus for our embassy for over a year now uh since the deaths in November 2024. Um, it's been a um an ongoing focus um of course since uh the advice of the trial of the US citizen
>> and this and and thank you. Obviously it a high priority but despite that evidence there was a clear breakdown and that has been unfortunately um reported in the media but in saying that both the minister you have spoken to the parents as you said and apologized and secretary you have also issued um an apology to the parents. Um, was there a failure in monitoring the trial between when you found out on the 14th of January and the 29th of January when the verdicts were
>> Uh, Senator uh the embassy in uh Vient were monitoring uh the US case be because of you know the the the connection. >> Yeah. uh if if I could explain without uh taking away from what we've said in taking responsibility for the breakdown. uh it with the best of intentions uh people involved decided that they needed to understand more what the implications were for the Australian uh cases of this of this verdict of this sentence uh because it wasn't because it was you know it it was connected but of but on very different grounds to do with the tampering of the evidence. So we were trying to understand more what it meant directly for the investigation underway uh into into the deaths of Holly and Bianca. Um frankly it was the wrong call. Um yes we couldn't explain. We knew that that would be the question. What does it mean? and we didn't have the answer and people were working very hard to >> figure out what it did mean and therefore what we could say in good faith. Um, frankly, it was the wrong call. Uh, we should have realized that that information would be uh shared amongst the the the grieving families that uh in including in other countries that of course had remained in contact. Um uh we should have said this is what we know. We don't know exactly yet what it means, but that's what we're now trying to work with our embassy and the the LA system on
given Miss Chan's evidence that obviously this has been um a high priority uh as it should be uh since the deaths um between the 14th of January when the trial against the US citizen uh the trial in relation to the US citizen commenced and the 29th of January when the trial concluded and the verdict was how many times did our representatives on the ground in country attend court?
>> Those I don't think those dates are quite correct. I'll just get
>> Senator Kate Smith, acting first assistant secretary, Southeast Asia Regional and Mainland Division. I I just want to clarify that while we became aware on the 14th of January that the case was moving to the court. >> Yep. >> Uh it was not brought on in court until the 29th of January. So I would not want colleagues to have a misapprehension that there were
>> No. And I did want to clarify that. Thank you. So you became aware on the 14th of January. There was no court proceeding between the 14th of January and the 29th of January. Correct. And then what actually occurred on the 29th of January in Toto?
>> There was a hearing before the court. >> Um and on that day the matter was disposed of. >> Uh and we were um left with information about the outcome that the secretary has spoken about >> and we were working uh through post to ascertain what that meant and what the implications were for Holly and Bianca's
cases. And did we have anyone in the court on the 29th of January?
>> Yes, we did.
>> We did. Okay. Um, on the 14th of January, when you became aware uh that the case would be progressing, did you inform Holly and Bianca's parents?
>> I defer to my
>> Senator, yes, I emailed both families to let them know that the 10 cases had moved to court uh with the charges related to the destruction of evidence.
>> and then what occurred between the 14th of January and the 29th of January? Was there anything that occurred in terms of you've notified the families that the case in relation to the US citizen on those charges is progressing on the 29th? What do you then do to ensure that the family feels supported etc. understands what the process is until we get to the 29th of January?
So we were in regular contact with the families throughout that period to let them know what we were doing. Um so as I mentioned that same day we contacted them to let them know that the case had moved to court. The next day, which was Thursday the 15th of January, uh there was a further email sent to the families from our consular staff um acknowledging their response to our advice from the day before and we let them know that we would respond as soon as possible um once we had more information. Um, on Friday the 16th of January, which was the next day, I sent an email to both families advising of all of the requests for meetings um that the Lao ambassador uh or our ambassador in Lao had uh requested um with uh officials in the system. Um we advised the families um also that Post had visited Nana's backpackers um to confirm that it remained closed. Um we also advised them that we were following up with the court to see if um they could access the court and case files which would give them information on that case. Um on Thursday uh sorry the 22nd of January um we heard uh that it was the case relating to the US vict victim. Um we advised the families um on the 28th of January um that we had received confirmation that the case related to the US victim and that there was not a connection to the cases of Holly and Bianca. At that point we again advised that we were urgently following up the status of Holly and Bianca's cases. They remained our priority. Um and then of course on the 29th of January, the next day there was
on the 29th of January uh when the trial concluded and as you say uh the decision was handed down as reported um convicted only of destroying evidence for this is in the language of the press obviously finded $185 each and given suspended sentences. Did you contact Holly and Bianca's parents on that day?
>> No, Senator, we did not. and the secretary has apologized for that.
>> Okay. Can I ask then on what basis did who made the decision not to contact Holly and Bianca's parents on that day?
>> I'm not going to be naming specific staff uh in Senate estimates.
>> I'm not asking. Well, perhaps you could give. Was it yourself, Secretary?
This is has been very distressing for the families.
>> It is very distressing. That's why we're trying to work through it to see where the breakdown was.
>> Senator and um the uh the secretary's explained the decision that was made which he has described as the wrong call but it was not made through um bad intention. And it was made with good intentions uh which were to try and understand what um the implications were for the um the the cases in relation to the two Australian girls, young women um before the families were spoken to. Now demonstrabably that was not the right call. Uh and the secretary has apologized uh as have I. I just don't think it's it's reasonable for you to ask questions, but I don't want individual officers uh pursued in relation to it. >> Uh well, Min ask you to respect that.
>> Yes. >> Perhaps then I'll rephrase the question. Um at what level was the call made? I don't want to know who the person was. Were they an assistant secretary? Were they an EL1?
Uh Senator, uh I have uh asked the department to uh review the communications and the uh conversations in in relation to that and to identify well uh opportunities, systems improvements, uh escalation uh to to uh uh communications on these these kinds of
>> because obviously the fact that the evidence has been given quite articulately. Thank you. Uh that the department has been in contact with the parents and in particular we've now seen the timeline from the 14th of January. Uh but the failure in process obviously on the 29th of January. So at this point in time, Secretary you saying you do not know how the call was made to not advise Holly and Bianca's parents of the
outcome? Uh, Senator, what I've said is that uh people with very good intentions were trying to find out more information for a more satisfying communication with the families uh to understand the implications. It's complex. Uh it's quite hard to know, you know, the um exact thinking in the prosecutor's office. It's not um it's not it's not straightforward. Uh so people were working diligently to understand the implications and seeking advice and uh more information from the Lao
authorities. Secretary, was the breakdown then in the communication on the 29th of January, was it in country or was it here in Australia?
Well, our staff all work closely together uh as you've heard the embassy uh has this issue as a very high priority uh as does the consular division. Uh what I would say is that uh I have also myself uh asked the Lao ambassador to help us have uh really as clear information as we can on the the you know prosecutor's processes and uh to keep us updated of developments. uh it's you know it's it's not straightforward to understand
>> and I understand all of that as you said we are dealing with a different legal system let me though just put onto the handside record what the parents have said because the parents are actually distressed at the fact that they were not informed of the outcome they've said we feel let down by our government they have failed our families they have not been able to get bas basic answers. They have not applied meaningful pressure and they have allowed our daughter's deaths to be quietly brushed aside. They've also said, "We're out of options. We have done as much as we can. The only people that can do any more for us are our government." They've also said, and I would like to explore this further, the Danish and UK governments are getting information, and our government just seems to be quite reactive. Our government doesn't seem to be able to get information. We feel abandoned. How are the Danish and English governments getting to talk to these people and we are not getting information from our government? So, can you take me through the information that you understand the Danish and the English governments are
Uh, Senator, I really again offer deepest condolences to the families uh for the deaths. This is just unimaginable loss. Uh, I accept the sense of uh frustration and uh need for accountability. Uh that's why we are working so hard to press the LA system at all at at you know senior levels including political levels for uh information updates as to what's occurring. We we now have been assured that the investigation process is still underway with regards uh to Holly and
>> What was that evidence you just gave >> to ensure that the investigations are still underway in relation to Holly and being Yeah, sorry. I just want to just
clarify what you said. I was uh repeating what uh Deputy Secretary Chan said which is that we have um clarified that from the uh Lao government's point of view or the the legal systems point of view uh Holly and Bianca's cases are still under the legal process in Lao. >> Have not been completed. >> Thank you. So given that that case that investigation is ongoing, we are putting all of our effort into uh urging full accountability uh and uh transparency to the extent their system allows it uh with respect to our cases and that's why we've asked foreign minister has asked special envoy Pablo Kang to travel urgently uh to to really make those points. So our focus is on case. Uh we have been it it's not that we've just started. We've been very focused on this all along.
>> No. And and I um as I said, I'm sure it is a high it has to be a high profile. That goes without saying there has been a very distressing breakdown on a very important date. that date being the 29th of January. Um, and despite all the evidence, can I ask why did someone just not advise the parents of the result and then tell them but we are also analyzing the implications and we will keep you informed of that because the distressing part for the parents uh as we all know is that they do feel abandoned. It's the breakdown in the communication on such an important date. You'd kept them informed from the 14th. They knew this was happening. You knew this was happening. We had as your evidence is someone in the court on the 29th. And as we know the most important the most important things in these cases is just that basic communication. So can I ask why were they just not told this is the outcome as it relates to the US citizen and we are now analyzing the implications of this as it relates to Holly and Bianca.
>> Senator I can only say that I wish that
>> I'll have to move the call around. Thank you Senator Cash. Um Senator Go and I'll come to Senator Schub afterwards. Uh