Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 51:08 to 1:27:05
Discussion on Australia's middle power diplomacy strategy and the diplomatic visit of Israeli President Herzog.
Topics: Diplomatic events, Israel
Speakers: Hon Penny Wong, David Shoebridge, Speaker 10, Jan Adams AO PSM, Paul Griffiths, Inderpal Sidhu, Raff Ciccone, Varun Ghosh
Minister, you've spok often about amplified middle power diplomacy and you referred to it in your opening statement today as a key tool of Australia's foreign policy statecraft. Um, can you expand on what you mean by amplified middle power diplomacy uh and how it
>> I'll I'll try and articulate it this committee has uh we've had a discussion in this committee for some time now and I think it is observable in the world that uh we live in very very different very difficult times. Uh there are um we see a a global trend away from a rules-based order towards the exercise of power. Uh and we all know that for Australia we have benefited greatly uh from um the rules uh being the means by which disputes and issues are resolved and managed. We also know that uh if you have a an international system which is predicated primarily on the exercise of power you know that is that is risky for us as a country but we also think for global and regional peace and security. uh so uh I've spoken about that for a number of years now including before becoming foreign minister uh and I think the trends have intensified since then uh you know we see the UN in frankly in crisis we see conflict increasing we see poverty increasing we see development assistance being cut uh cut or reduced uh we we see great u I've spoken about China seeking to reshape the region uh in its interests. we see uh disruptive, destabilizing uh powers like Russia, Iran, North Korea uh um seeking to as I said to destabilize um uh and I've spoken about the uh President Trump's uh articulation of uh a very different role uh being envisioned for the United States and the world. So the point I've made for some years now is uh and if you it's been a consistent proposition but it's become even more salient in today's world is that uh we we cannot leave uh the assurance of peace and stability the sustaining of international peace and security as only a matter for the great powers. Now that is not to say the great powers are not relevant. They are. Uh but that is not the end of the matter and and we cannot simply be passive and say we're going to leave it to greater powers than ours to assure peace, stability and prosperity in our region and globally. So I think what we have seen in in these last these last years assertive middle powers like Australia uh working harder uh I think alone but also in in existing and new coalitions and I describe that as amplified middle power diplomacy which is middle powers stepping up uh exercising their own agency and working together in different ways. uh uh and you can see that uh in um uh what we have been doing for the last three and a half years and it's we we have to be active and ambitious in an increasingly multip multipolar world. uh so that is the I suppose intellectual framework by which your international intellectual analysis by which you can understand uh the the new architecture the government has been prioritizing whether it's the common security treaty a treaty of common security with Indonesia the pukbook treaty with Papa Newu Guinea the alliance um you see it also in the declaration for the protection of humanitarian personnel which we uh led head uh at uh culminating in the uh um announcement or the the um establishment of the declaration uh at UN high level week where we saw 100 countries um come together to say we must protect those who risk everything to help others in conflict. And if I may, just on a personal note, it was I did reme I remember sitting there on the outside the the UN at the event. We had a very large um attendance. Um in these in these times to have a 100 countries be prepared to sign up to something is unusual. Uh and it was actually very moving to watch country many countries my friend um foreign minister Sugiano the um uh foreign minister Kaba from Sierra Leon uh I think Japan Switzerland the United Kingdom you know countries around the world from very different continents different perspectives but all united in saying together we want to preserve this norm uh which for me said you know there are many countries who are seeking to do so uh on the war in Ukraine we're we're an active member of the coalition of the willing we're pursuing a security and defense partnership with the European Union that's in addition to the trade agreement that is um still being negotiated that the secretary spoke about so we have to continue to build alignment with others uh uh in order to be able to work for peace and stability. Um that was a long answer. I hope it articulated the way we think about it.
Thank you, Minister. It's a it's a topic of interest. So, appreciate that answer. Secretary, are you able to provide some examples um in your view of where that amplified metal plow diplomacy is in
Um I have colleagues uh who can add but I look I think foreign minister has has articulated the key bilateral regional and multilateral elements of that. So uh bilaterally of course I've we've mentioned a few times in this committee hearing already the significant treaty uh with Indonesia uh the significant treaty with Papuya Guinea the significant treaty with uh Tubalu and other uh arrangements bilaterally that we're intensifying uh work on regionally. We focus particularly on Azan uh as an as a as a uh regional body to help middle powers and small even smaller ones uh deal with uh geostrategic pressures uh as a group and likewise in the Pacific Island Forum and multilaterally um ministers example is a really key one. But of course uh in UN New York for example, you'll find our people working with uh others on an interestsbased approach, different different uh partners for different issues uh to collectivize and uh you know amplify our voice as as appropriate. But I'm sure Dr. Subchuk can add.
Um, Senator Peter Subchuk, first assistant secretary, geo strategy and partnerships division. I think we've had a very comprehensive view of the architecture [snorts] and the what and how of middle power diplomacy from the minister and some key examples by the secretary. I'd only add that because of the circumstances we're in and because um they require us to amplify our middle of power diplomacies as the minister mentioned what that means is two things that we need to put more of a premium on powers of persuasion over raw power and secondly that as a middle power we have to invest in trust and I think what we heard in terms of what Australia does in pursuing uh partners in the region in particular that match and supplement our our reach and what we do regionally uh through Azan for example to build capacity with partners like Japan and Korea is really important. miniatural partnerships where our profile really comes to the four such as in the Quad to uh respond to regional countries infrastructure needs, maritime security needs, cyber security and humanitarian disaster relief and how we collude with other middle powers in multilateral for at a time when uh though the foundations of multilateralism are under pressure is really really key and we do that um as Australia with the brand name that we have but also through cross regional groups such as MKA um as well as on the arms control front through the non-prololiferation disarmment initiative. But why we have influence um is we've put a lot of energy in amplifying our middle power diplomacy in our value proposition as a middle power. We've expanded our diplomatic networks. We've enlarged our defense capability. We've uh extended the reach of our soft power. Um and we've also invested strongly not only in our own economic resilience but that of the region and that really raises our stocks uh among other countries and that's really really key to effectively how effective our middle power diplomacy can be. But one other issue I' I'd mention is that we're also uh an ally of the United States. We're also a major economic partner of China. the ability of us as middle powers to talk to major powers to pursue not only our interests but our obligations to make sure that um they're reinvesting in rules is really important and that sends an important signal to countries that are perhaps lesser than middle powers in our region and globally.
>> Thank you. Um, Minister, you referred to that interaction earlier between um, the role of middle powers and the role of great powers, but if I could ask you to reflect on how uh, the Albanesei government's approach to amplified middle power diplomacy compares with previous approaches to our
as you know from the commencement of the first term, we spoke about firstly not only our geographic priorities which were demonstrated by my travel priorities in the first year and the prime minister's um where um I travel to every Pacific Island foreign remember and all the countries to Azan other than Myanmar in the first 12 months prime minister's first bilateral visit was uh to Indonesia and again this term um that uh uh you know we you can see the you know geographic priorities but it also goes to how we engage uh and uh I think we we did see unfortunately particularly under the Mr. Morrison uh a tendency to lecture uh which is why I did emphasize uh listening and respect uh in how we sought to engage with the Pacific. well with all countries but particularly with the Pacific uh and Southeast Asia that the prime minister is a uh has brought that personal respect to his engagements with leaders and you see that in the friendships he had and respect that he has uh in the PIFF uh and also in Azan in particular but I think with the the leaders with whom he's engaged um I would also make a point here about development assistance. Um, when we came to government, we'd seen the largest cuts to foreign aid in our history. I think it was just under 12 billion. Uh, and a denial of climate change, which, as you know, is the entry ticket as the prime minister describes for engagement and credibility in the Pacific. They they they are they articulate very clearly that climate change is their number one economic and security priority. Uh and of course Australia was engaging in an attack on the multilateral system. Um you may recall negative globalism which was the phrase that uh the previous government used. Uh now I think all of those that approach was deletterious to our national interests. All of that was bad for Australia's interests. Uh I think it made us less uh influential uh less credible and less respected in the world which is precisely the opposite of what you need to be particularly in a time of turbulence. And so we have really worked very hard to uh turn that around uh to restore our credibility in terms of climate change to uh lift our diplomatic capability and to focus it uh and to demonstrate uh leadership uh and but that work continues and I I won't pretend to Australians that the stability that we have known known for much of the period in the post-war era is assured. I mean that is a stability for which we have to work and we have to work much harder. Uh and my view has always been we we do better at that if there can be bipartisan a bipartisan approach on these issues. Uh I regret it many times that has not been the case. I hope that will change uh if there is a new leader or a different approach because I genuinely believe that we are facing some of the most challenging times that this country has seen since World War II and we best respond to it where there is bipartisanship. Um you know a mature and considered approach. uh and uh you know uh I think we are diminished when foreign policy and international issues become issues of domestic partisanship. That is my view.
>> Thank you minister. Thank you chair.
>> All right. Thanks Senator. >> Uh Senator Shoebridge.
>> Oh thanks chair and um thanks minister and thanks secretary for your attendance Minister, how many Well, how many times have you met with President Herzog? Um,
>> sorry. Could we just You're doing the Herzog visit now? I just want to change initials. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Could we please change? Thank you.
>> How many times have you met with President?
>> Just if we could just wait for the
minister. How many times have you met with President Herzog um on his visit here and [clears throat] what was the duration of any such
>> How many times have I met with him? full stop or on
>> his visit here. And what was the
>> just the once?
>> And where was that?
>> The state lunch yesterday. >> Well, so it was not a formal bilateral.
>> All right. Are you intending to meet with him again? >> How long was the state lunch?
>> Well, I wasn't able because obviously we it's an estimates week. I wasn't able to attend the the full lunch. So, um, I'd have to It went longer than I was. I left before dessert, so I think it was I was there for about an hour and a bit from memory. >> But I can check that.
>> All right. Well, President Herzog has been visiting Australia. Um, his government, the Israeli government, has been passing new extreme laws designed to take even more Palestinian land in the West Bank. And while President Herzog was here, the Israeli finance minister Bezel Smottrich announced those moves to make it easier for Jewish settlers to take over Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank. And he said this, "We will continue to kill the idea of a Palestinian state." Have you or any member of the Australian government raised that with President Herzog in his visit? objected to those appalling statements from the finance minister and made it clear that these moves by Israel are directly
There's a few questions there. Um I think the first one is the visit itself respect uh that you have different views and I acknowledge many people have very different views and very strong views about the um the the situation in the Middle East uh and also the uh visit of um President as I have said publicly, "President Herzog has visited Australia uh in the aftermath of the worst terrorist attack our country has seen on our home soil. Uh and an attack that it was an anti-semitic terror attack. Uh he is here to honor the victims of that anti-semitic terror attack and to provide support to the Australian community. And I think uh you would be aware that this is a moment of great trauma for many in the Jewish Australian community. Uh I do know people have different views we have been clear about our position uh in relation to some of the issues you raise including in relation to the West Bank, the conduct of the war in Gaza. We've been uh clear about that including directly uh to President Herzog. Um, I would say that this visit is important to a grieving community. Uh, I would hope Australians uh, and parliamentarians can respect that regardless of their views about uh, the actions of the Netanyahu government. In relation to uh, settlements issue, perhaps Mr. Griffith Sadu could respond and also um Mr. Smottch.
>> Thank you, Minister. Paul Griffith, first assistant secretary of Middle Eastern Africa, excuse me, Africa division. Um, look, we've consistently expressed concern about settlement activity to Israel and the expectation that um that Israel um uh hold perpetrators of violence, but also also perpetrators of settler violence to account and and cease its ongoing settlement activity. Most recently, our officials in Tel Aviv have made representations to the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs on settlement expansion, land annexation, and settler violence. That was on the 21st of this year. Uh in and in Canberra, we have raised our concerns with the Israeli embassy on the 2nd of December,
>> Minister, I ask again, did you or any Australian government official challenge the Israeli head of state who's out here, he says in part on a diplomatic mission? He's been very clear. It's a diplomatic mission um for Did you object to while he's out here his finance minister saying we will continue to kill the idea of a Palestinian state and the Israeli government passing laws to make that a reality? You had the president of the state. Did you minister raise that with
President Herzog? Senator, if I may, um Harinda [clears throat] Sidu, Deputy Secretary, International Security, Legal and Consular Group. Um I just wanted to uh point you to a statement that the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade made yesterday [clears throat] with relation in relation to that legislation. Uh the statement read, "Australia objects to the Israel Security Cabinet's decision to expand Israel's control over the [clears throat] West Bank. This decision will undermine stability and security. Oh gosh. Um the Australian government has been clear that settlements are illegal under international law and a significant obstacle to peace. Altering the demographic composition of Palestine is unacceptable. A two-state solution remains the only viable path to long-term peace and security for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
Minister, I'm not asking about a statement that isn't even published on DEFAT website. I'm asking if you raised it. You had the head of state of Israel out here. At the same time as his government is pushing new laws to make it impossible for a Palestinian state and to take more Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank. You had him across the lunch table with you. Did you
I'll make two a few points. Uh the first is I think everybody would be aware uh that in relation to Mr. Smotrich, he was one of the Israeli ministers the government has sanctioned. Um the second uh point is I think Israel and the Netanyahu government I should say is well aware of Australia's position on two states. I think you would have observed over time uh the response from Prime Minister Netanyahu to Australia's uh recognition of Palestine and advocacy for two states as well as our responses on settlements which is consistent with what Miss Sudu has outlined. So the position that was the public statement uh is consistent with the position we've previously held. Um what I can indicate to you um is obviously the counterpart for the the formal counterpart for President Herzog is in fact the governor general. Um however the prime minister has made clear to the house uh that the visit was also an opportunity for the prime minister to raise a range of issues with president. Um uh and the prime minister uh did did so uh uh and the issues that were raised reflect the public position Australia has articulated on two states. Our position on settlements and the West Bank. uh our position on the US-led peace plan, the situation in Gaza and the important the need for humanitarian aid uh as well as um the other bilateral matters which you would know uh we have been active on including the investigation into the death of Zami
President Herzog has made it clear that his actions here are not merely ceremonial, that he's on an active diplomatic mission for the state of Israel. And he's also a person who the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the occupied Palestinian territory in its findings has highlighted the appalling comments from him. incitement for genocide comments is how they've they've they've identified them and it's this comment of his in reference to the people of Gaza. It's an entire nation out there that is responsible. It is not true this rhetoric about civilians who are not aware and not involved. It's absolutely not true. Did you or the prime minister at any point say to President Herzog, "That statement was hateful and we condemn it and we condemn the idea of um uh treating every Palestinian um as as fair game in in the appalling attacks on Gaza." Did you condemn that
Senator, I've really responded already to your question. I've explained why Senate M. President Herzog is here. I've also indicated to you uh that uh the prime minister engaged personally with the president, raised a number of issues with him. I've explained to you that the prime minister's representations reflect Australia's public position. uh uh you know uh what we the way in which we have sought to approach the conflict the devastating conflict in Gaza after the horrific uh attacks of October 7. Uh we have been for two years part of the international pressure for a Uh we have uh called for return of hostages and we have pressed for a two-state solution. We've recognized the state of Palestine and we have spoken about the devastation and humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We have [clears throat and cough] uh unequivocally condemned Hamas. We have committed um some 130 million in humanitarian assistance. We continue to work with our partners to support the delivery of aid. We have sought to Uh and and the prime minister put it very well yesterday um or the day before. He made the point there are two roads in the Middle East. One is for Israelis and Palestinians to walk the path towards a resolution that is a two-state solution. And that requires dialogue. It requires engagement uh with Israelis and with Palestinians um you know the the the other road is one where the state of Israel does not find the long-term peace and security it seeks in its region and the Palestinians remain an oppressed people. Uh and we believe lasting peace requires engagement with both.
Minister, I asked you, you speak of lasting peace, you speak of a Palestinian state, but I asked you whether or not in President Herzog visit visit you, you you you raised or condemned the statement from Minister Smatri saying on behalf of the Netanyahu government, we will continue to kill the idea of a Palestinian state. And it appears that wasn't objected to. You invite somebody here who's been found to be complicit in genocide with with that with that statement and and you reference public statements. Never has that been objected to by the Australian government. And you invite someone here who signs 155 mm artillery shells that are used in war crimes. How is any of that consistent with your statements about wanting peace or any kind of sustainable state for Palestine?
First uh we have been clear about our support for the state of Palestine. That is why we have recognized Palestine and it is why we have taken the action with others that we have taken. And the the we do so because we believe the only path the only path to long-term peace and security for Israelis and for Palestinians is with the establishment of two states. uh and that requires dialogue and engagement. Senator uh now uh clearly uh yeah the prime minister has expressed the Australian government's views on these and many issues to the president as is appropriate.
Minister, you say that and indeed the prime minister has said that the issue of Zomi Frankham was raised. Zomi Franklin's family have still not had even a glimmer of justice. And um Mal Franklin told SPS News recently that he and the family are still waiting for information. and and this is what he said, not only for Zomi, but for the seven victims of the April 1 strike. I've spoken to a few of their families as well, and they're in a similar position with kind of being in the dark, not having any updates. The pain of Zombie's family is just a tiny little glimpse into the horror show of pain that's gone across all of Gaza. But can you at least provide any update for the family on pressure you've made to have Israel finish its investigation or to provide the drone audio recording?
>> Well, I have engaged with uh Mal um Mr. Frankham uh and the family others can advise um what further engagement there's been but he was very involved in the declaration for the protection of humanitarian personnel that I described I think in my opening statement um I asked him to attend the launch of that uh because I had spoken to him about wanting to do what we could to ensure uh that this did not happen to someone else. Uh so I'm I'm really and I was very appreciative uh of his involvement. I think it made it um very meaningful. Um the prime minister made the point yesterday uh that uh he if President Herzog had not been here that he would not have been able to raise it personally which uh uh so one of the issues I raised I'm quoting from the prime minister was Zami Frankcom and her six world central kitchen colleagues the deaths were a tragedy and an outrage that is the Australian government's position and
minister say it wasn't a tragedy it was a crime to target and kill aid workers including an Australian aid worker and did the prime minister demand demand a conclusion to the Israeli investigation which is now the better part of two years the family's been waiting were those basic statements and demands made
the prime minister of the country raised it with the president of Israel with respect he he would raise that in the way he thinks is best for the country and to press the interests uh of Miss Frank and her family. Uh so, you know, I appreciate you want to write the prime minister's talking points. Uh but he is the prime minister and I'm sure he would have communicated that in the way he thought uh was most effective uh to get uh um progress in relation to that investigation.
>> The family want the Israeli investigation to conclude. They want some kind of justice, not just for Zombie, but for the for the other seven aid workers who have been killed. And then the countless other aid workers and journalists and medics who have been killed in Gaza. This is a a tiny insight into the horror show in Gaza.
>> I want I want an outcome in in relation to the military investigation too, Senator. The Australian government does.
>> Have you asked for the drone audio
recording? This is we have made uh we have consistently advocated for a thorough full and thorough investigation and uh for uh justice for uh Zami Frank and the six other victims of that
>> Is there a timeline? Has the Israeli government at least given Australia a timeline about the investigation into
Uh, Senator, um, I'm not aware of, uh, I'm not aware of a timeline, but I will take that on notice. In addition to the the minister's comments and the prime minister raising the case of, uh, of Miss Frankham yesterday, um, I'd also add that we've we we do continue to engage Israelis officials on this. This is active for us. Um, we are still trying to get accountability from Israel. Most recently, we spoke to in Israel to the government there on the 6th of February um in Israel, but also spoke to the embassy here in Australia