Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 1:44:29 to 2:05:43
Examination of Australian policy regarding West Bank settlements and the application of autonomous sanctions.
Topics: Israel, Human rights, International law
Speakers: Lidia Thorpe, Paul Griffiths, Hon Penny Wong, Inderpal Sidhu, Julie Heckscher, Raff Ciccone
>> the latest moves in the West Bank.
>> If you could just hold for a minute, Senator, I'll just get the officials to
>> Great. Thanks.
Uh Paul Paul Griffith, first assistant secretary of Middle East and Africa division. Um Senator, can I can I just clarify your question? You're asking really for our assessment on the latest developments that we've seen this week on the settlement activity. Is that
>> Well, the assessment um what assessment has DEFAT made of the role of Israel Israeli entities including the World Zionist Organization and its settlement division. um in particular the settlement expansion in the occupied Palestinian territory.
Um so let me start in the in the broad
>> including presently but what other assessments
>> right um let me start in the broad um I mean on on settlement activity we have consistently um opposed uh settlement activity. the the foreign minister spoke this morning on on some of these issues, but um we are conscious that uh settlements are illegal under um under UN Security Council 2334 U and we repeatedly make uh representations to that effect to to Israel. What we've seen uh just this week by the Israeli security cabinet is a decision effectively to ban to expand um Israeli powers in the West Bank. Um that is in relation that impacts in particular two two fronts uh land land sales so enabling effectively outsiders from the World Bank uh from the from the West Bank my apologies to purchase land in the West Bank and also greater civilian oversight in areas um areas A and B which has [clears throat] some Palestinian Authority oversight. Um we have um of course in line with previous statements we uh have the position that we object to that decision. Um we've been consistent as I said that Israeli settlements in Palestine are illegal under international law and a significant obstacle to peace. we um any we are concerned that any expansion of settlements really pushes the peace further from reach and and uh pushes back against what we're seeing elsewhere in relation to the US peace plan and some gains made there and fundamentally that the announcement's a step in the wrong direction. Um in relation to your question specifically about the World Zionist Organization and the role of Israeli entities, I will have to take that on notice. um and uh and come back
>> Thank you. I appreciate that. Um has DEFAT received submissions from Australian civil society organizations calling for targeted sanctions against Israeli entities and individuals involved in settlement
>> uh Senator, thank you for the question. Um [clears throat] uh on the question of submissions, I I might ask Mr. Griffith's comment. We don't have spec I don't have any specific uh information on that, but just as a general point uh to make it clear that um uh Australia has been consistent as he says um uh in uh saying that settlement activity is illegal under international law and a significant obstacle to peace. We have insisted that Israeli must cease settlement activity. Australia has sanctioned uh extremist Israeli settle settlers uh to hold them to account for their violence as well as uh Israeli ministers Beng and Smortich who have been uh uh complicit in settler violence and who have been promoting settlements in the West Bank. Um so that's the action that we've taken so far.
Thank you. Um, so I'm not sure whether you had um whether you answered that you had received any submissions.
>> Not not that I'm aware, Senator. We'll take that on notice and take that one on
you haven't heard of any submissions coming from Amnesty International? Jewish Council of Australia,
>> Senator,
>> Medical Association for Prevention of War.
>> Well, as as you would appreciate, this is a very topical issue and a lot of um a lot of organizations and individuals have a have a have a view in this and regularly express those views. I will take it on notice on specifically what we have received. I would be certain that we have received some
Okay, [clears throat] thank you. So given the government's stated commitment to the consistent use of targeted sanctions for serious human rights abuses, how does DEFAT assess the appropriateness of hosting or engaging with organizations identified as central to illegal settlement expansion in the occupied Palestinian territory, including the World Zionist Organization and its settlement division.
Um, look, Senator, I think we can I can I mean, you're you're citing civil society groups there. Um, really all I can repeat is what we've said before that we've taken very strong action internationally and strong positions internationally in in calling out settlement activity in particular. Um and you know there are numerous numerous statements to that to that effect. Um as Miss Sudu outlined, we've taken sanctions against uh individuals and entities that that are involved in those um that have been involved and made public statements to the effect in support of settlements and settler violence also. And um and yes, so
>> Senator, if I could add to Mr. Griffith's uh testimony there. Um where somebody uh a group uh an entity or a person is sanctioned uh those sanctions generally relate to uh a number of factors including financial sanctions but also travel bans. Uh so um I have um Miss Hector uh uh sitting at the table who is responsible for sanctions and sanctions policy and perhaps she can provide you a bit more information about uh the nature of the sanctions that we apply and how they operate. C
>> could I just add to my my question just so that maybe um it could also be clarified as part of this next answer. the the latest um like Hersog's delegation included the chair of the World Zionist organization that I've mentioned. So you you have them in your midst. Can you please explain?
>> Um sorry Senator Thorpe the late I didn't hear all of the first part of your question. in the latest what
>> uh the uninvited Herszog in this country his delegation includes the chair of the world Zionist organization in which I mentioned >> uh you know who who um the gentleman referred to as a civil society group and can't comment on that. However, the chair of that group is part of Herszog's um delegation. So, they're right there in in your midst in terms of um complicit in this takeover of sovereign just trying to make sense of it all.
>> Uh Senator, um uh we uh the minister has been clear previously to uh be to clarify that the governor general has invited President Herzog to Australia to honor the victims of the Bondi anti-Semitic terrorist terrorist attack and support the Australian Jewish community. Um obviously uh he is accompanied by a delegation uh and they arrive in Australia for the same purpose and on the same opaces.
>> sorry that that sorry that was completely irrelevant to my question.
>> Sorry.
>> Um I made mention that part of the delegation is the chair of the World Zionist Organization. I'm not talking about Herszog. We know what he's about.
>> Senator Thorpe, I think,
>> talking about his delegation.
>> Yes, Senator. Thank you, Senator Thorpe. Um I I've [clears throat] just been sent some information because I was trying to understand your question and I understand uh that there has been um a um public statement by some of the organizations that you have referenced uh relating to what they are describing as a submission with um DEFATs human rights division seeking sanctions. I wasn't aware of that till I'm afraid till I heard your question. Um uh we generally would not um as you probably have heard me say uh you know we don't discuss um sanctions until um we do them for obvious reasons. Um, but uh if I I'm happy to get Miss Hetcher to EXA to uh answers explain to you where sanctions are, but in relation to your question, I'd ask that we perhaps take it on notice and we can have a look at um the the submission that's been provided and
>> I'd appreciate that. And just for for clarification, the sorry I I didn't catch his name, but the gentleman talked about the sanctions and and um our this country's stance against um occupied Palestinian territory. Uh however in Herszog's delegation is the chair of the very organization of the settlement division that's going on. So it it seems to me that it's contradictory to what was explained to uh when the very um delegation is is the head of of is responsible for this. So how how do you reconcile that as a government when you say one thing and
Um well, Senator, I mean, I I think the President Herzog's, you know, delegation and who's a member of that delegation is is of course a a question for um the president himself. Um I take your point.
>> Sorry, he's he doesn't come to Senate estimates and he's not answerable to a genocide that's going on in Palestine. So, I don't I don't need an answer from him. I'm asking what the answer is because you it's it's sorry, what's your name, sir?
>> Sorry. Paul Paul Griffiths.
>> Um, Mr. Griffiths, you explained very clearly the process of sanctioning. However, this country, your this government has rolled out the red carpet for the chairperson of the very issue that you seem so strong about doesn't happen here. So that's what I'm trying We are facilitating the chair of an organization that's taking over
>> Thank you, Senator. Yes, look, I I outline out outlined what our position is, what we repeatedly convey to Israel, what we raise with Israel, and we have done a number of times. Um what I was uh getting to really is that the president's delegation um if it did include uh someone from the World Zionist Organization as as you're saying um they may have views that are contrary to our own. Um we obviously need to engage with Israel um and have have a relationship with them. Um that includes on disagreements of which settlements and settler violence are are one that we raise we we can and do raise with them.
Is there any due diligence taken by the department in relation to who what the delegation is this person that's part of a government that's committing genocide? Is there what's what's the due diligence taken given your explanation earlier that the sanctions are are real and that um our position this country's position on occupied Palestinian territory? How do you not know that the chair of this organization, the World Zionist Organization, how do you not know that? How do you know not what not know who's coming into the country that's doing this?
>> Um Senator um perhaps um I can explain the invitation and the management of President Herzog's delegation has not been a DEFAT matter. That has uh uh that is a matter that PMNC has been taking the lead on for the government naturally because uh this invitation was issued by the governor general and uh and it involves the governor general and the prime minister. So we do not have uh a direct role in that process.
Yeah, that's sorry that's a really poor answer and I understand you know that's your that's your lines but I I think it's a non-answer and I think that you go on to my last question.
>> Could I could I just add I don't want to take up your time Senator Thorpe so perhaps the chair could give you a another a little minute I will. >> Thank you. Um >> yeah we've been clear about settlements. Um we've said uh they are illegal under international law. We have said they are not helpful to the progress of peace. We have uh sanctioned both ministers uh and entities because of their involvement uh in um or their their their treatment of um Palestinians uh uh and associated with settlement uh and violent settler activity. So we we do have uh a clear position on that because and you you would not have been able to hear because I think you might have been um in another committee that as I said to Senator Shoebridge, you know, we are very clear that peace in the Middle East requires two states um uh Israel and Palestine. uh and that and we believe along with many in the international community that is the only path to lasting peace and security and settlements are um contrary uh um uh to to that or or or are an impediment uh to that to that outcome. Uh I will um ask the department to look at the submission uh that you reference. I understand the point you're making. I think Ms. Sidhu wasn't trying to do anything other than to say that this department doesn't accredit as I understand the president's delegation. So your political point is a remains a reasonable one. I understand the point you're making but I'm not sure that officials I don't know that we tick off uh who is the delegation. Partly as a matter of how these things work, who's part of delegations, but also because technically the visit was not a foreign affairs organized visit. it would would have been organized through prime minister and cabinet. So I see I understand the point you're making. It's it's a um I will try and get more information but that was the nature of M's answer. >> All right. Thanks Minister.
Um, so just finally, what consideration is being given to imposing targeted sanctions on individuals or entities alleged to be involved in breaches of international humanitarian and human rights law in the occupied Palestinian territory? And additionally, why have no sanctions been applied?
Uh, Senator Julie Hexa, first assistant secretary of the regulatory and legal policy division in DEFAT. The Australian sanctions office sits uh within my division. Uh, just to note that perhaps by way of background, the kind of sanctions frameworks that we have, we implement UN Security Council sanctions. We implement country specific sanctions and we have thematic sanctions. Both country specific and the thematic are autonomous. So they're imposed by Australia. The UN Security Council sanctions are of course determined by the UN Security Council and we're obliged to implement. The reason I mention that is we do not have a country specific sanctions framework in relation to Iran uh to Israel. The uh the sanctions that have been imposed in relation to West Bank settler violence. And just to remind that uh on the 25th of July, Australia imposed uh thematic human rights sanctions on seven Israeli individuals. Uh that was financial sanctions and travel bans and against one entity for involvement in violence against Palestinians in the West Bank. And as has already been mentioned on 11th of June 2025, Australia sanctioned Israel's national security minister and finance minister for serious human rights abuses that similarly uh was undertaken under the Magnitzky the thematic human rights sanctions. Um we don't speculate as the minister has said on potential future sanctions we might undertake. uh anytime those are being considered obviously any individual or entity will be considered against the criteria for existing sanctions frameworks that we have in order to determine whether they meet the criteria uh and whether sanctions will be imposed. Just to let you know that's the general process. Uh we wouldn't as a matter of course speculate on any sanctions we might be considering or
>> All right. Did you have any other questions? I'll come back to you later on in the day. Um, Senator Thorpe, thank you very much. Now, I'm going to go to SE Senator Roberts and then I'll come back to Senator Cash. So, Senator Roberts,