Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 5:31:18 to 5:55:12
The department addresses allegations of an Australian citizen's abduction in Southeast Asia and Australia's engagement in UN tax convention negotiations.
Topics: Human rights, International law
Speakers: Speaker 32, Hon Penny Wong, Elizabeth Peak, Senator Raff Ciccone, Senator David Pocock, Dr Kate Mitchell, Elizabeth McGregor, George Mina, Interjection, Jan Adams, Michelle Chan, Natalie Cohen, Senator Jessica Collins, Speaker 33
>> Oh god, Ross. I don't want to know. I'm glad we're ending the line of questions can I just finish off on a few other questions just on the um Vale and maybe the um Vanuatu Nakamal agreement uh just briefly and then um I'll I'll might hand over to um Senator Collins and then who else is here on the All right. Thanks, Miss Peak. Before I start, I know the deputy chair just had one follow-up question from my earlier on questions. So, deputy chair, did you want to ask your follow-up?
>> Thank you, chair. Um, you you mentioned the 195 million that was going to Pacific Women Lead for the next 5 years. Um, can you just clarify? You said that was for gender based violence, but Pacific Women Lead program has three
um I guess programs in it. Is it just is it now just focusing on gender- based violence or is it all of those three the leadership and I've forgotten what the other one was the third one.
>> Yeah. No, it is broad it is broader. Oh, sorry. Elizabeth Peak, head of the office of the Pacific. Uh it is broader senator but I can see Mark Tatisol, our first assistant secretary of our Pacific Development Division coming to the table and I'm sure he can provide more detail. >> Thank you. Senator Mark Tatis, first assistant secretary, Polynesia Micronesia and Development Division. As was mentioned by Mr. Chic earlier the second phase of Pacific women lead was announced at the PIFF leaders meeting in essentially a continuation of the first phase of the program and has uh several key objectives but focused in particular on women's political leadership, gender-based violence, women's economic
right. So, so no change, just an extension to it. Thank you very much.
>> Sorry about that. [clears throat] Just got our own sideline meetings going on here in the estimates. Um um thank you for that. Uh M peak and deputy chair. Um just can I just ask uh M peak that what were the practical changes um that the ocean of peace alliance will bring in terms of our co cooperation uh between the ADF and the military of uh Fiji.
>> Thank thank you Senator. Uh the level of cooperation between the the two defense forces is already at a very significant level. uh but there are plans uh to to take that again to a new as I mentioned before elite level of of strategic trust and interoperability. Uh I I would uh refer it to my colleagues uh in defense to to speak to the detailed uh plans that they have in place and I know that they are quite detailed.
>> Yeah, I'm sure we'll have time tomorrow. Thank you. Um, in terms of the Nakamal agreement that was signed in June this year, are you able just to um go to the key outcomes of the meeting that occurred I think here in Campell the 15th of October?
>> Certainly. Uh, thank you Senator. The Nakamal agreement as you say was signed on 29th of June this year and I mentioned earlier that under the Nakamal agreement it established a piece of architecture called the Nakamal
Committee. Yeah.
>> Uh and despite the Nakamal agreement not yet being in force, both parties are, you know, very committed to to progressing the components of the Nakamal agreement. And uh we held the first meeting of of that committee here in Canra led by the foreign minister and and Minister Conroy on on our side >> and the deputy prime minister of Vanuatu on the other. uh that that meeting uh there were a number of key outcomes and the two governments released a a a joint statement publicly to to outline those. Uh one important uh thing that the committee underscored was the centrality of uh cultural connections as a a as a important component to elevate but also important in how we work together and in the margins of the committee. Uh we were uh honored to host the Australian South Sea Islander uh leaders. We had first nations leaders, Ambassador Muhammad uh convened a conversation with the Vanuatu ministers involved uh to talk about where we can take the cultural connections and what early advancements we could make on that. Uh secondly, uh there were a number of early actions that were articulated including uh moving forward on increasing police support, climate change support and support for uh El Nino. Um, importantly, uh, the Vanuatu side articulated helpfully, uh, the the status of, uh, policing cooperation in in Vanuatu and, uh, as is articulated in the treaty, reaffirmed that Australia was the primary policing partner and that other arrangements uh, were timelmited and expected to reduce over time and the expectation ation is that uh that we'll move forward with additional policing support as agreed by the two governments in in an early phase of implementation.
>> And thank you for that. Just um in terms of the committee, how will it help operationalize the agreement?
>> Uh the communicate uh is or the joint statement is a list of early priorities. uh we anticipate uh that I mean there are a number of commitments in the Nakamal agreement and there is no time limit on on the treaty. It will be an enduring treaty and so our two governments have come come together to work out where we will put our energy and effort for implementation uh in this
>> Thank you. All right. Look, I understand I've got a couple of colleagues just behind me that have a few a few short uh blocks, maybe five minutes each. So, I'm happy to um happy to go to either you Senator Pox and McKin. All right, I'll go to Senator PCO and
I just wanted to follow up um on Senator Smith's questions about Mr. Heap um Chun and I understand that um Mr. Chun's wife Khloe came to Parliament looking for more answers about her husband's alleged kidnapping in Cambodia and transport to understand that you have have been personally been in touch and I I thank you um for that. I was just wanted to know if the department is treating this as a kidnapping of an Australian citizen
>> Uh Senator, um in terms of the way we're treating this case, it's a consular case. Um I would say it's a complex consular case. So it is being considered in accordance with our complex case framework which means that uh we work with a range of other agencies in terms of uh developing our responses. Uh but we are giving it our full attention.
>> And thank you. That's good to know. How long will it take for you to be able to know if this is in fact a kidnapping of an Australian citizen or something else?
Uh, Senator, I'm unable to speculate on
Okay. Um, how does Mr. Chun's case differ from other Australian citizens who've been illegally detained overseas like Kylie Mo Gilbert or or Cheng Lee?
>> Senator, I'm going to step in here. when we deal with consular cases such as these, our first priority is um the interests of the Australian concerned. Uh and that informs uh what we say in fora like this and what we say um and what we don't um uh it informs how we deal with governments and how we deal with other matters. Uh so um uh if you want a a discussion outside of this forum and you have the authority to do so from the family um I'm prepared to do that. Uh but I am go we are going to be cautious about uh some of what we say here because we are focused on the best interests of the Australian. What I would say is um uh what I think Miss McGregor said in response to Senator Smith. I think you may have been out of the room. We've already dealt with questions on this matter.
>> No, I was in here.
>> I'm sorry. um that we take any allegation that an Australian may have been deprived of their liberty and moved across an international border against their will very seriously. We continue to seek clarity about the circumstances in which Mr. Tran came to be in Vietnam.
>> Mhm. Thank you, Minister. And I appreciate the the that there are sensitivities um around this, but I know in other circumstances there's been far more public comment and clear direction from government as to what is um happening. And
>> well, Senator, I go back to what I first said. When we determine what we say publicly and when we say it, we do so making a judgment about what is in the best interests of the Australian concerned. It is it is not a political decision. It is not a a publicity decision. It is a decision about the best interests of the person concerned. That is the approach I took in relation to Mr. Turnell. That is the approach I took in relation uh to Miss Chunglay. uh that is the approach I've taken in relation to other consular cases where we have been uh able to assist people uh in these circumst in circumstances where uh they uh wanted to come back to
>> can you tell the Senate whether the the Vietnamese or Camb Cambodian ambassadors have been called in over the incident?
Michelle Chan, deputy secretary, South and Southeast Asia Group. Uh, DEFAT did act promptly on the information available to us and when we're advised of his um his disappearance or his um um when people were not uh aware of where he was, his whereabouts. So, officials made inquiries um initially with the in with the Cambodian authorities and as Mr. Tran had gone missing in Cambodia after failing to board a scheduled flight to Thailand. Um on the 23rd of September, Defat submitted formal requests to authorities from neighboring countries uh Laos, Thailand, and Vietnam about his immigration movements. And when Vietnamese state media reported Mr. trans arrest which was on the 28th of September, officials um repeatedly sought urgent confirmation of his location and welfare and immediate consular access um with um that access taking place uh on the 15th of October. Um and those discussions have been at various levels both um in Ponen and Hanoi and uh also here in Canra.
>> Thank you, Mr. And that's great to know. I really appreciate your work on that and um thank you, Minister. I I'll leave it there and and um
>> Thank you.
>> take it up off away from estimates.
>> Thanks, Senator. Senator McKim.
>> Uh well, thanks, Chair. Good afternoon, Minister, and to uh the officials with you at the table. Um there are moves internationally to establish an international panel on inequality. um to coordinate global efforts on inequality similar I guess to the way the IPCC does on climate. Um is Australia supportive of these moves which are being driven by um a number of and if you are supportive what have you done on the international forum to advance the proposal?
>> Thank you. Thank you Senator Natalie Cohen. I'm the acting deputy secretary for development multilateral and Europe group. I wondered if you could tell us a bit more information. Um we're not aware of the panel immediately. Was it under the opaces of the UN?
>> Uh well it's I believe that it is and it's an an international panel on inequality. Um as I said similar to the IPCC I mean it's at at the formative stages. So you're not aware of that?
>> No, we're not. Obviously, we're very concerned about inequality in the terms of our development program more broadly and and international engagement, but not aware of that specific panel.
>> Okay. So, there were 30 countries that met during the recent UN General Assembly meeting. Obviously, Australia was not one of those countries. draw that matter to your attention uh minister and through you to your officials and um uh suggest respectfully that uh that you have a bit of a look at what's being proposed and perhaps we can discuss it at a future estimates.
>> Happy to have a look.
>> All right. Thank you. Um there are also growing calls for an international tax it's [snorts] uh um it's further advanced than uh the matter that I just raised. Um the UN convention on international tax cooperation uh began in 2025 will continue until mid uh next year. Um the proposal arose out of frustration that um OECD led efforts to address uh base erosion and profit shifting um are slow too slow and are too um I guess colonial in nature that is they're favoring wealthy countries over countries that are exploited um for their wealth and excluding uh countries in the global south from negotiations. Um and by the way that's in response to um the OECD le efforts. So um are you aware of um negotiations to develop a global tax treaty and has Australia engaged in that process and if so how?
>> Senator George Mina, Deputy Secretary Trade and Investment Group. Uh as you rightly say, Senator, there are a range of efforts underway. uh including those at the OECD in which Australia participates actively uh uh as you've said also that those efforts have a range of limitations. Uh now of course the Commonwealth Treasury leads on these matters and uh uh they'd be the appropriate place to direct questions on this.
>> Yeah, thanks. So I will I will ask Treasury about this um a little bit later this afternoon, but um I mean you you'd be aware of uh of this international work that's being done. Obviously
>> we're aware of discussions. We're not the lead agency. So we don't track international negotiations. They're quite different from uh the broader question of of whether there's dialogue discussion on global coordination on tax. Of course we're aware of that. But the Commonwealth Treasury is the lead agency on these matter.
>> All right. Do you advise Treasury on Australia's engagement with uh negotiations around an international tax treaty?
>> Do we advise? Did you say sorry? >> Uh Treasury is the lead on matters relating to international tax and they would be the ones that that typically would prepare advice on these matters to
it's I mean you could correct me if I'm wrong um minister or anyone at the table but surely you don't just let random Australian government agencies kind of blunder around on the international stage. point your treasur you know the point
I'm making. I don't think I don't think
they'll withdraw I'll withdraw but you know the point I'm making. I mean surely DEFAT exercises some engagement with Australian agencies who are acting on the international stage. I put it like that.
>> It's not possible for us to um well sorry I'll I'll rewind that the the the the orderly way in which in these international relations are are managed and various international issues uh and policy areas are managed is to ensure that the relevant government department is clearly the government department that has responsibility for it. So I think all Mr. Mener is saying look we we have certain responsibilities. Mr. Mean is going to be very happy to talk to the committee I'm sure about why the the European FTA should be supported by you and by by the coalition and why that will benefit Australian workers. Um and he will do so I'm sure eloquently and with a lot of evidence later today. But and so we're happy to talk about the treaties or proposed treaties that we are responsible for but this area is led by treasurer
>> and I get that
>> and in fact the the um treasurer uh the assistant treasurer and former assistant treasurers have done a lot of work including by the OC OECD on some of the issues you raised but they would be much better play they are best placed to respond on these issues. Well
>> I'm not seeking to ask you any questions of detail about what Treasury is doing. I'm simply asking [clears throat] what engagement this department has with what Treasury is doing. >> So, do you have any engagement at all or does Treasury just get to stride onto the international stage with no engagement with DEFAD at all and conduct negotiations uh unilaterally or is there some level of engagement from DEFAT?
>> There's so many things in that which so many presumptions which I need to It's a
simple proposition.
>> No, no, it wasn't. It was a whole fat range of set of incorrect assumptions. First, no treaties are entered into no uh you know there there is a polic a process of approval for ministers who are engaging in international negotiations. So if you are seeking to engage in you know negotiate a a treaty, you have to get a mandate from the cabinet. Okay. So, so first this point that willy-nilly I think or whatever the phrase was that that's frankly just it's just not a truthful proposition. >> The second point is I I have no doubt that as appropriate um departments would engage on s on issues but um the only point we're making is that Treasury is the lead on some of the issues you're raising. If you have other issues, we're
happy to assist. I'm very uh aware of the fact Treasury is a lead because I've been informed so about half a dozen times in the last five minutes. I don't need don't need to be informed that again. I'm not seeking to ask about that. I'm not seeking to challenge that. I'm simply asking what if any engagement does this department have with Treasury's work on this matter on the international stage? That's a simple question.
>> Absolutely. >> Sorry. because that there are lots of different issues where we might
>> No, I mean I've been very clear about this. It's the UN convention on international tax cooperation. Minister
>> tax cooperation.
>> What is DEFAT? What if any engagement does DEFAT have with Treasury while Treasury is working on the UN convention on international tax cooperation? >> I think it's a controversial question.
Senator uh further to the minister's explanation when any any government department whether it's transport or health or treasury uh engaged in international treaty negotiations. There's of course a whole of government uh process behind the original cabinet mandate that's given by government to the negotiators and then as relevant uh those policy agencies with lead responsibility engage other parts of the commonwealth government. Now that would include DEFAT sometimes it would include attorney general's department sometimes on matters to do with international law. So it very much depends on the subject if if there are connections between particular provisions and for example our trade law obligations WTO or our investment agreements uh bilateral well Treasury has responsibility for those but it would depend on the the the subject matter and how they construct their consultation but as I suppose I can say as secretary where we're where [clears throat] uh treaty negotiations engage either our international law or our policy subject matter or for that matter our bilateral relationship equities we would be involved
perhaps I could ask you to take on notice because I'm obviously not going to get it today could you just please respond specifically in relation to the department of treasury and the UN convention on international tax cooperation what are the governance arrangements if any around that is there an IDC or a working group of some kind and what kind of engagement I'm sorry
I'm sorry but that's actually the treasury depart you know Treasury is running that
>> I understand the Treasury will have a working group but does is defv involved I'm just asking from this ministry >> what is your engagement with Treasury you're obviously not going to answer it here I'm just asking you to take it on notice and see if there's anything further you can provide
>> if they've said anything further we'll provide it may be that we so I'm just being upfront with you. We may simply be referring the question to Treasury, but we will see if there's any further
>> Thank you, Chair.
>> Thanks, uh, Senator McKim. Now, deputy chair, >> far away.