Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 3:51:51 to 5:31:18
Discussion covers key outcomes from the Pacific Islands Forum and the management of the Australian Treaties Database and intergovernmental working groups.
Topics: Pacific relations, International law, Government IT systems
Speakers: Hon Penny Wong, Elizabeth Peak, Craig Chittick, Speaker 29, Senator Raff Ciccone, Adam McCarthy, Dr Kate Mitchell, Elizabeth McGregor, Speaker 28
Minister, if that's okay. Um just um in terms of how the government is strengthening our sort of security and advancing our national interests in the Pacific given um uh your your your government's recent um uh time in the
>> Um [clears throat] like the first comment I'd make is um you know the the task of ensuring or assuring a safe and more secure region is it's never finished. It's ongoing. uh and we have to and we are working to continue to strengthen our relationships across the region. Uh and that means ensuring we build trust and we remain a partner of choice. Um you know we turn up, we listen, we listen with respect and we work with Pacific to advance Pacific priorities. Um uh we are of course the Pacific's largest and most comprehensive development partner and there has been sustained engagement across the government from the prime minister to you know obviously myself um ministers, cabinet ministers and and other and members of the executive as well as members of parliament. Um uh and you know I said on the I think in the first video I did just after we were sworn in, I talked to the Pacific about how we would engage with them and I've sought to keep faith with that. Um uh we've seen quite a number of uh I think that that um foundation of respect uh of um us you know Australia being a a better member of the Pacific family a better more engaged member of the Pacific family has enabled uh a change in Australia's relationships with the Pacific Island uh forum members uh and you see the the result of some of that uh in some of the agreements that I went through in my opening. So the Pukpoke alliance with Papa New Guinea, the ocean of peace alliance with the valley union with Fiji, Nakamal Vanuatu, Falipili with Tuvalu and of course the uh NAO Australia treaty and these are major achievements that wouldn't have been thinkable um under the previous before the government changed. uh but yeah I think to be you know very pragmatic about it what this is something we have to keep working every day to do to advance Australia's interest and strengthen our relationships in the region um I think I mentioned the PN min Australia PNG or the PNG Australia ministerial forum appreciate my all my colleagues who who went as well um uh we had it was led by the deputy prime minister uh the co-leads were myself and minister foreign minister the Chenko. Uh, and really we focused on, you know, we have an alliance, we have a very strong development, um, comprehensive partnership. How do we translate that into benefits for both our countries uh, and our region? Um, the officers can talk on more detail about that, but the the only point I did want to make is well wanted to make two points just before I throw to them. chair. One, we can never be complacent about what I've described as a permanent contest for influence at our region. And secondly, again to say Australia's interests uh are the Pacific's interests. Australia's interests are in the Pacific that is a peace, that is peaceful, that is stable, that is prosperous, and that is sovereign. What do I mean by sovereign? that we can all make decisions for ourselves and for our
>> And just following up from that though and your opening statement, what would you say be the main developments in terms of our engagement over the last five or six months?
>> I might turn to Miss Peak and ask her if she can perhaps fill out a bit more detail uh on some of the agreements that I've gone through if that's all right.
>> Sure. Thanks.
>> Sure. Thank you, Senator Elizabeth Peak, head of the Office of the Pacific. uh in addition to the uh very helpful outline the minister gave in relation to Papa Newu Guinea uh Vanuatu and Fiji uh just to to fill out the developments. We've also been working very hard with the Solomon Islands including prime minister traveling to the Solomon Islands and being the first leader from another country to ever give an address on Solomon Islands Independence Day. uh and we're progressing the comprehensive treaty that our two two prime ministers agreed uh that we would start negotiating. We've been working with Tonga on the Kame offy agreement uh and we haven't forgotten Micronesia. We have been delighted to host PIFF uh President Whips uh who opened Palao's embassy here in Canberra and that follows uh high level visits from President Heine and uh from Marshall Islands and and President Simar from Federated States of Micronesia who also opened an embassy earlier this year. So it's been a a comprehensive effort and on top of that foreign minister attended the Pacific Island forum foreign ministers meeting and the prime minister Minister Bowen and Minister Conroy attended the PIFF leaders meeting in Palao. So, it's been it's been a a busy few months and it's I think exemplifying the fact that we are working hard to secure uh our region to have a safer and and more prosperous region for our people. in in terms of the the some of the details of the agreements that the foreign minister uh spoke about that they're they're significant agreements and indeed in relation to the ocean of peace alliance and the vival union the prime minister described it as one of the most significant endeavors that Australia has undertaken wi with any country. uh the the way that we worked with Fiji uh to come to that result is one of following its priorities. Prime Minister Rambuka requested those two treaties which have uh provided an inked an alliance and and provided a multi-deadal effort between our two countries. And uh one one point I just wanted to highlight in that treaty is that uh the cultural component had been essential uh to progressing that. And uh our first nations people uh the Yongu people and the Northern Territory gifted the name Bookmark to one of the major committees that will take this relationship forward into the future. and cultural exchange is a fundamental part of continuing to operate with
>> Thank you. I I will get to um and ask a few more questions about the the details of the agreements spec specifically, but um before I do that, I did also want to ask then with these recent and agreements that both you and the minister have just outlined with our Pacific friends and partners, um how has that changed the way that we as a country work with them?
It's a good it's a really good question, Senator. And the treaties do something important, which is establish architecture to take our relationships forward. That includes the proactive parts of our our relationships and implementing the treaties, but perhaps even more importantly, uh they provide a a culturally appropriate place to have some of the difficult conversations uh that are sometimes needed. uh I mentioned the bookmark uh forum in Val Union and similarly the Nakamal [clears throat] agreement there's a Nakamal committee which at its heart has a philosophy of engaging with with respect and in a spirit of consensus so it's it's really changed the typical way that we would work as diplomats um taking into account uh the the ways of working that our partners value.
>> So, a followup then from that would be um how have you and the department then um um dealt with the key outcomes and and maybe go to the key outcomes of the Pacific Islands Forum leaders meeting in Palao? Um could you outline for me those key outcomes and how or if there's been any other progress to date >> since that meeting?
>> I'd ask Mr. Chik to
>> Thank you, Senator Craig Chidik, deputy head of the Office of the Pacific. Um yes, Senator, the Pacific Islands Forum is the is the the premier regional forum for um for leaders and for ministers. Uh and uh the government's investment in Pacific regionalism is important because there are uh because a stronger, more resilient and more prosperous Pacific uh will be easier for the region to secure when its own institutions are strong. And it's something that uh Australia has invested in um very heavily in recent years. Um the uh as Miss Peak said, the prime minister attended um the Pacific Island Forum Leaders meeting in September of this year. It was his fifth uh Pacific Island Forum leaders meeting. Um there was a very substantive um leaders communicate which outlines uh a number of lines of work that are really valuable [clears throat] in securing the region's uh vision, its ambitions, and its interests. And um I thought I'd just mention three. Uh the first one is um the Wonga Moana initiative which is uh a countered drug trafficking initiative uh which really directly responds to the call by Pacific leaders at their meeting last year um uh and in particular to to address uh the maritime drug trafficking that um is fueling uh drug consumption in the region. Uh this uh is uh an initiative that we're really proud to work closely with Fiji in developing and Fiji will uh will form a real centerpiece of the Wonga Moana initiative. Uh the prime minister and minister Conroy announced in Palao um funding from Australia um of over $600 million over the next decade u to support implementation uh of the Wonga Moana initiative. Uh the second uh uh element I'll just mention uh is around digital and artificial intelligence and Pacific leaders adopted a set of digital and AI principles that will guide uh policy development in the region uh and also um help PIF members uh be able to make uh highquality selections when it comes to investment and this is something that Australia uh has been supporting the region uh for many years now. But um uh I'm also mindful of the announcement by the prime minister and Mr. Conroy at the PIFF uh of the finalization of the East Micronia cable which now means that all PIFF members are uh are connected uh to the through the modern world through um through broadband through undersea cables. uh and the government's um capitalization of the AIFFP uh uh to $550 million an additional grant will provide additional support for Australia to be able to to help the region um with its own vision for its uh digital and AI future. Senator, the third point I I'd just mention um is around women's political participation and were very encouraged. The PIFF leaders and I might quote directly from their communicate that leaders urged members to adopt national policies and laws to increase women's part political participation and representation. leaders welcomed the announcement by Australia of the investment of $195 million in the Pacific Women Lead program which has supported women's leadership and entrepreneurship and combed gender-based violence. So this will be phase two um of this very successful program. Uh there are many other um I think successes that are contained in the leaders communicate but I might leave it
there. No, I appreciate that and I'm just mindful of time, but um just going back to your first the first initiative that you just touched on for me. Um how will it strengthen the regional cooperation when it comes to illicit uh drug trafficking? >> You want to maybe um
>> so Senator, the region
>> unpack that for me a bit more please.
>> Yeah. So the re the region um uh is well uh is well toolled to address uh illegal fishing uh through a range of uh regional institutions like the foreign fisheries agency um uh provision of maritime domain awareness to identify uh uh um uh drug you know for illegal fishing vessels. So to address uh the issue of of uh drug trafficking um it is about connecting those existing um uh regional uh institutions along with the um guardian class patrol boat program which Australia has uh supported the region over many [clears throat] years. So um Australia's support will be through additional uh defense spending particularly around aerial surveillance. >> Um and we will be working including through the AFP to better join up those regional assets so that we can get actionable intelligence into the hands of law enforcement agencies so that they can take sovereign action within their own jurisdictions.
>> Can I just add to that? I think Mr. Chinik outlined it very clearly. um and succinctly, but just this is really important because and I want to acknowledge not just the work of you know not just the PIFF members obviously but actually [clears throat] the AFP and defense as well. This has been a really important and will be an important exercise in us time to join up a range of the measures we are already providing and increasing in some areas to try and deal much more effectively uh with transnational crime um particularly um um elicit drug um trafficking. What's and it will be it important because a we want to stop drugs, [laughter] we want to stop the criminal networks which um are operating in the region but it also will give as Mr. Chik said that the what we want to get to is a much greater capacity in the maritime domain that we that is joined up that is regional and that enables countries to make their sovereign choices about how to deal with them. So it is, you know, a lot of work. Um, and I'm really >> I want to I mean the really appreciate the work of um the AFP uh and the ADF as well as the work of office of the Pacific in in in developing this and getting um was really good that the prime minister and um uh Mr. Conroy got this agreed at the PIF leaders.
>> Very important. No, thanks Minister because I I guess it it goes neatly to my next question which was about how does our support for this initiative then translate into much stronger information sharing um you know the maritime surveillance that you touched on um and also the capacity to respond to transnational crime.
>> Sorry I kind of jumped the gun there, didn't I? half answered that
>> and I'm not sure if Mr. wanted to add anything else to that but clearly um you know
>> senator really is about
>> good cooperation between our police and defense forces.
>> Yeah, I mean uh both AFP and the Department of Defense and ADF have uh incredibly deep relationships bilaterally in the region um and uh uh and that addresses uh uh some some vital uh security issues uh regionally. We also uh have a history of working and and the Pacific Policing Initiative is uh is is a fantastic example of that. Uh in a sense this is a a maritime version of that kind of cooperation uh which ultimately is about um as the minister said uh empowering uh sovereign countries in the Pacific to be able to uh take the law enforcement action that we know they want to take. And so it is about getting better maritime domain awareness. It's about having it analyzed and transformed and then communicated quickly and effectively uh to PIFF members so that they can take the action that they that they that they want to and need to and that benefits the region um as well.
>> So just skipping ahead to the Vulvale Union agreement too. I I understand it includes cooperation on transnational crime and illicit u drugs. What will it that mean then in practice and why is it important noting what you've also just mentioned that how did the two then you link or intersect with each other
>> thank you senator in some ways the vival union provided the foundation for this broader regional initiative uh Fiji uh has been ringing the bell on transnational crime, on drugs and the social implications of that for for some time and the Vavale Union provided a an opportunity for for us to come together to to deal with that bilaterally and then we're able together to take that to the Pacific Island Forum uh and multilateralize it. So the the efforts and energy that we have put in to the Vaval Union helped regionally. Uh just just one point to add is indeed the unusual philosophy perhaps of the Vavale Union and the Ocean of Peace Alliance is that while they're bilateral treaties the philosophy is that any investment that is made under those opaces should help Fiji should help Australia and should help the region. So that's the frame of reference that our two countries have taken to the investments that we're making bilaterally.
And so in terms of the distinction between each of the treaties with the Vulvala Union and Ocean of Peace Alliance um you just explained just briefly about the distinction the purpose of each of those treaties and how they work together. >> Um but also the main commitments under the um Vuluvalla Union and how progress against them will be tracked.
>> Thank thank you Senator. The Ocean of Peace Alliance uh is a mutual defense treaty. So the the core component is a mutual defense obligation elevating our two countries to allies and uh to an elite level of strategic trust. The Vavale Union covers the the waterfront of our cooperation and is a as I mentioned a multi-deadal treaty that that covers all elements of our relationship uh that will be tracked and implemented uh hand in hand and uh I I mentioned earlier uh the bookmark forum um >> bookmark meaning meaning everyone uh we will have a bookmark forum on an annual basis. That's the intention and that will be an opportunity not just for governments to come together but the potential for inclusion of traditional leaders, faith leaders, business leaders uh and community leaders so that we can have whole of nation tracking and implementation of the extensive commitments we have made to each other.
>> And that's the purpose of that forum is
>> That's right.
All right. Look, I I've got some other questions that when it comes to Strand Venuata, but noting the time, I think we might just break here and then come back after lunch and then um I'll continue with questions. >> Thank you. Welcome back everyone. Thank you for that. Uh now I'm going to hand the call over to Senator Dean Smith is my understanding. >> Got a few questions.
>> Good afternoon minister and officials. Uh I'm seeking an update uh to recent media reports and representations made concerning Mr. Tran, >> a dual citizen of Australia and Vietnam who's currently detained by Vietnamese
authorities. Can you just hold for just You want do you want an update?
>> Yes. I I was asking for an update rather than providing one. Yep. Thank you.
>> Good afternoon, Senator Elizabeth McGregor, first assistant secretary, consular and crisis management division. DEFAT continues to provide consular assistance [clears throat] to Mr. TR and his family. Consular officials were able to visit Mr. Chan on the 15th of October uh and heard directly from him about his welfare, his consular needs and the circumstances of his detention. We're seeking an expeditious resolution of Mr. Tran's case and his return to Australia to be reunited with family. We're continuing to raise his case at senior levels with Vietnamese authorities. Uh we're pressing for regular consular access under the terms of our bilateral consular agreement with Vietnam, humane treatment, access to legal representation uh and uh a quick process. We're deeply concerned uh at uh the report uh that Mr. Trann has given that he was abducted in Cambodia and taken against his will to Vietnam and have sought urgent clarification from both governments about the circumstances of his entry to
>> Thank you very much uh Miss Gre McGregor. So to confirm that Australian officials have engaged Vietnamese officials.
>> That is correct.
>> Uh and a consular visit has taken place. >> That is correct. And has a subsequent consular visit been requested or confirmed?
>> We have requested uh monthly consular visits and that is under the terms of our bilateral uh agreement consular agreement with Vietnam.
>> And has that uh request been confirmed? Has the next monthly consular visit been confirmed?
>> Uh I can confirm we have requested it. Uh I am not aware uh that it has been confirmed yet.
>> Okay, great. Thanks very much. Thank you. Thank you, chair.
>> Okay, Senator Cadell, you've got some other questions.
>> Some questions on treaties if the right people can come up.
>> Treaties.
>> Treaties if I may.
>> Is there any particular area of treaty?
>> Um generally is my doom scrolling. I found a section on the website that I'll read it.
>> Doom scrolling where being asked questions about you.
>> I cannot vouch for the accuracy or completeness of the uh treaties database. So, I'm just trying to work out how we keep track of how many treaties we've got and what they go. >> Yeah, Dan, it was a boring day, >> So, exactly that on on the uh treaties database, it says DVAT cannot vouch for the accuracy or completeness of list of treaties. Um, do we know have a list of how many treaties Australia is currently
Uh, thank you, Senator. Adam McCarthy, Chief Counsel and First Assistant Secretary, Legal Division. Uh, it's difficult to um, uh, pin down an exact number. There are over 2,000 entries in the treaties database, >> but that includes not only treaties. Uh, every time there is an amendment to a treaty or an annex to a treaty is amended, uh, that is recorded as a treaty action uh because it is a matter that needs to go uh before uh J Scott uh and if necessary before the parliament. Uh the second thing I um uh would add is that the treaty's database goes right back to the first treaty uh that we signed uh as an independent nation which was the treaty of Versailles in 1919. So um especially for some of those uh earlier entries when uh uh uh issues were recorded potentially in a different and not altogether accurate way we can't vouch 100% for the accuracy of those first couple of decades.
>> So away from treaty actions do we have a list of like bilaterally or multilateral treaties that are still in effect versus those that were sign you gave the treaty of Versailles. Is there a definitive list I can look for for current active multilateral and bilateral treaties?
>> The treaties database is uh split into uh multilateral uh treaties and bilateral treaties. So they are recorded on two different sides of the of the one treaty base. So
>> but they're not all valid. Like going back to treat what one I saw the I wrote it down here somewhere the treaty of me with Colombia between the United Kingdom um Ireland and Colombia in 1825 is on
Uh well that will not be recorded against our treaties database because uh we were not an independent country or a signary but in in answer to your question the revocation of a treaty is also a treaty action right >> uh so it is recorded in the database uh as well
>> and I get they're all there but if you want to go through it's quite complicated to go through and see which are the valid non like how do I find which ones are still in effect without having to read every single one to find the withdrawals. How how do I find out what treaties
>> Senator Kate Mitchell. I'm the acting assistant secretary of the international law branch at DEFAT. Um there is no central list. The way in which you can identify the status of a treaty would be to um in the case of the database click on the relevant treaty and you would be able to identify its status in that it will note whether or not it is in force.
Okay. Each individual I get that. So of all the entries on that database, you would have to click on each individual Is there no one in the department just >> can do a review of getting the active ones in a separate list to all of them?
>> Well, Senator, as uh Mr. McCarthy said, there are um thousands of treaties on that database. Um it is that database has the the full list. There's not a a schedule or a separate document that records that list as
>> who in the department on every law we pass or anything is responsible for finding out we're not breaching one of these treaties that exists from a long time ago or we're outside the scope or who who knows Australia's actions are in line with everything we're required to if we don't have a single list of still active ones.
>> Well, Senator, the treaties to which Australia is a party well I'll answer it in two parts. DEFAT has a treaty secretariat that sits within the international law branch. Y we are responsible for assisting the foreign minister on her responsibility for treaties and supporting the entry of those treaties through parliament for example through J Scott.
>> Yep.
>> Once a treaty is in force it generally the implementation and ongoing um operation of that treaty is managed by the relevant departmental lead.
I should say uh also uh Senator, it is standard practice that when legislation comes forth that may engage our international obligations, it is standard practice that that is referred uh both to DEFAT's uh legal division and also to the attorney general's office of international law uh to do if you like a stock take uh and ensure that the uh the whatever is the domestic legislation uh that is being proposed is consistent with our international obligations and to provide advice on that.
>> Can you describe me quickly through we mentioned these thousands of entries in that go through how many clicks would I have to go through right down that page to make sure nothing applies that my my concern is just that that every treaty action listed in there is and we when you can't say an actual number this is how many bilateral this is how many multilateral you can't give me a number of how many actually exist. So, if we can't have a number of how many are still active and valid, which I would hope we can, how do I know that they're all being monitored for these things?
>> I think the answer that Dr. Mitchell just gave you, I think, so Senator Cadell, >> so someone go through no if so, uh, that this portfolio has responsibility for make sure I say it correctly, >> right? um uh ticking off on essentially um uh the the the the making of the treaty then I send it the foreign minister sends a treaty to EXCO etc. >> But once it is in force
>> DQ takes it or someone else
>> well whoever there would be a department and we have some that we are lead on but there would be other departments and they are responsible for our obligations ensuring we met our obligations under those treaties.
So to get that I should go to every department and ask how many trees they actively monitor. Would that be the way to do it? >> Yeah.
>> I suppose I'm not sure. It's up to me to draft. >> No, no, no. I might do that. Well, I'll
ask. How many How many treaties does DEFAT currently actively monitor?
>> How many treaties are we the lead department? >> We we can provide that. I'm just We might have to take it on notice.
>> I'm happy for that. >> Um you mentioned J Scott. Um a 2017 paper from Australian and New Zealand Association of Parliamentary Clarks found that seven uh treaties where Jay Scott got recommended against ratifying, five went ahead regardless. How many times in say the last I won't make it political on government. How many times in the last 10 years has government taken binding treaty action against Jcott recommendations or before J Scott had recommended?
>> I'd have to take it on notice, Senator, but I'm not aware of any recent examples where J. Scott has recommended against binding [clears throat] treaty action.
>> Yeah, it's I mean I can say
>> it was this was all pre207. I'm just
>> Um I'm not sure that we'll see if we can help you. But I what I would say to you is I've been shadow trade, shadow foreign and then foreign minister. And the approach that's always been taken is you try to um ensure that any issues in the J Scott are dealt with.
>> Yep.
>> Because you do want to So
>> no, it's just interesting.
>> Yeah. No, I mean it's it's not an executive the approach generally from either side of politics is generally not been a combative one with J Scott.
>> Okay. And the other thing I read about was the treaties council was set up a long time ago when coag existed and it had some meetings. Uh co-ag no longer exists. Does the treaties council still exist in any way, shape or form?
>> I've never heard of the
>> It was given now the states used to get a say in some of the treaties. I think that was the process of it. Um, Senator,
under Australia's treaty practice, we have uh administered through prime minister and cabinet associated with the the what was previously called the standing committee on treaties. Yep. >> But now exists through the intergovernmental working group um with states and territories. Um several times a year we consult with states and territories on treaties that are currently under negotiation or review.
>> Okay. that standing committee on treaties, commonwealth and state officials. Is that that group now?
>> Uh yes, it's administered through the department of prime minister and cabinet but for which we provide secretariat support.
>> How many Oh, sorry. >> No, sorry.
>> When when in your next break, I've got something. I'll go back. You finish this first.
>> Just how many treaties have you referred to that group and how many times has it met in the last mate >> 12 months?
>> I'll have to take that on.
>> Happy with that. Thank you.
I'm advised by my very able staff that the Australian Treaties database has a filter on its website where you can choose between inforce, no longer in force, or not yet in force. >> So that makes it much easier for you, Senator.
>> I had a really good click. It doesn't work quite that well, but that's
>> okay. I'm just talking.
>> No, no, no. Best lay plans of m men. That was a rough night. That's all I have. Thank you.