Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 0:10 to 47:53
The committee discusses reports of Iranian-backed cyberattacks and the government's rationale for maintaining diplomatic operations in Tehran despite security concerns.
Topics: National security, Human rights
Speakers: Hon Penny Wong, Jan Adams, Senator James Paterson, Senator Raff Ciccone, Dr Ralph King
>> Okay. Good morning everyone. Um, I'd like to declare open this meeting of the Senate Foreign Affairs Defense and Trade Legislation Committee. I want to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which we are meeting today and pay my respect to their elders past and present. Uh the Senate has referred to the committee the particulars of the proposed expenditure for the year 2026 27 and other related documents for the foreign affairs defense and trade portfolios. The committee has set the 5th of November 2026 as the deadline for senators to submit written questions on The committee has set the 17th of December as the date for the return of answers to questions taken on notice. Under standing order 26, the committee must take all evidence in public session and this includes answers to questions on notice. I want to remind all witnesses that in giving evidence to the committee, they are protected by parliamentary privilege. It is unlawful for anyone to threaten or disadvantage a witness on account of evidence given to a committee and such action may be treated by the Senate as a contempt. It is also a contempt to give false or misleading evidence to a committee. The Senate has resolved the following test relevance of questions at estimates hearings. Any questions going to the operations or financial positions of the departments and agencies which are seeking funds in the estimates are relevant questions for the purpose of estimates hearings. I want to remind officers that the Senate has resolved that there are no areas in connection with the expenditure public funds where any person has a discretion to withhold details or explanations from the parliament or its committees unless the parliament has expressly provided otherwise. The Senate has resolved that an officer of a department of the Commonwealth shall not be asked to give opinions on matters of policy and shall be given reasonable opportunity to refer questions asked to superior officers or to a minister. This resolution prohibits only questions asking for opinions on matters of policy and does not preclude questions asking for explanations of policies or factual questions about when and how policies I draw the attention of witnesses to an order of the Senate of the 13th of May 2009 specifying the process by which a claim of public interest immunity should be raised and which I now incorporate into the handside. Witnesses specifically reminded that a statement claiming that information or a document is confidential or consists advice to government is not a statement that meets this requirement of the 2009 Instead, witnesses are required to articulate the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or the An officer called upon for the first time to answer a question should state their full name and position for the handside record and witnesses should speak clearly into the microphone. Please ensure mobile phones are either switched off or turned to silent. I remind senators or witnesses in the in the hearing room that micro microphones remain live unless instructed otherwise. For witnesses participating via video conference, uh please mute your microphone as default. I remind senators of your obligations under the behavior code for Australian parliamentarians to treat all witnesses with dignity, courtesy, fairness, and respect. I ask members of the media to follow the established media guidelines and instructions of the committee secretariat. I remind everyone in the gallery they are not permitted to speak or interfere with proceedings or with any witness at any point during the hearing. Witnesses and senators who are seeking to table a document during the Senate uh committee hearing are required or requested to provide an electronic copy of those documents to the secretariat so that the documents can be circulated electronically during the hearing. Now, today's committee proceedings um for this estimates will commence with representatives from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. And I'd like to now welcome Senator the Honorable Penny Wong, Minister for Foreign Affairs. Good morning, Minister. >> Good morning. >> Uh Miss Jane Adams, AOPSM, Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Good morning, Secretary. >> Good morning, chair. >> And to all your officers of the department. Now, Minister, did you have an opening statement?
>> I do, chair. Thank you. Colleagues, since we last met in June, the world has only become less certain. Conflict is taking a devastating human toll. Strategic competition continues to sharpen and the global economy is deteriorating. Disruption to vital shipping routes is pushing up fuel and fertilizer costs as well as inflation around the world, including for Australians. Chair, we cannot isolate ourselves from these pressures, but we can act to shield Australians from the worst impacts, and that is what we are doing. The Albani Labor government keeps focusing on our region, strengthening our relationships, upholding the rules that protect us all, and fortifying Australia's resilience. As I've had said many times, it is in our region where our interests are most at stake. In June, we signed the Nakamal agreement with Vanuatu, supporting its development ambitions, economic transformation, and our shared security. In July, we signed the Vivval Union and the Ocean of Peace Alliance, which will establish Fiji's first mutual defense alliance and Australia's fourth. The Pukpook treaty entered into force, making Papa New Guinea our newest alliance partner. At last week's Australia Papa Newu Guinea Ministerial Forum, we advanced cooperation on health, security, telecommunications, and economic opportunity. We continue to progress a new comprehensive treaty with Solomon Islands. These partnerships are guided by Pacific priorities, mutual respect, and by trust. In Southeast Asia, we are deepening security cooperation with Indonesia under our treaty on common security. I was pleased to meet Indonesia's new foreign minister, Minister Nasier. last week. Also last week, we announced more than $60 million to strengthen Timolstee security, resilience, and regional engagement. And with Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Brunai, Malaysia, and Indonesia, we are working to secure essential supplies, including petrol, diesel, and fertilizer. In July, we welcomed India's Prime Minister Modi to Australia, formalizing cooperation in tech and maritime security, diversifying supply chains, and enhancing Indian Ocean Chair, since we last met, catastrophic floods along Nepal's border with China have caused immense devastation and loss of life. 34 Australians remain unaccounted for and my thoughts are with their families and their loved ones and with all those affected by this tragedy. Australia deployed 49 officials and specialists to support search, rescue and recovery efforts and we have committed $26 million in humanitarian and recovery assistance to help Nepal rebuild. The prime minister and I have met with our Nepali counterparts and the government continues to work with Nepali and Chinese authorities to seek information. We will continue to do all we can to seek answers for families and stand with the people of Nepal as they recover. The Abani government is also acting globally to uphold the rules that protect us all. At the UN high level week, the prime minister launched Australia's bid for a security council seat for 2930. We seek that seat because we believe a safer world is governed by rules, not power and force alone. Should we be be successful, our purpose and our approach will be consistent with how we conduct ourselves. We will listen with respect. We will partner as equals and we will protect what matters most. Australia ratified the landmark high seas biodiversity treaty and the prime minister joined more than 20 world leaders calling for stronger international control of frontier artificial intelligence. Colleagues, Ukraine shows why rules matter. Russia, a permanent security council member continues its unjustified and illegal invasion. At the United Nations, the Prime Minister and President Zalinski signed the Australia Ukraine bilateral security agreement providing for enduring defense and security cooperation. We also announced a 30 f further $60 million in support of Ukraine including Australian Defense Force equipment. We stand with Ukraine because its people have a right to determine their future and because the Security Council veto must never be a license to violate the These rules also include international humanitarian law. In honor of Australian aid worker Zami Frankquam killed by the Israeli Defense Forces alongside her world central kitchen colleagues. Australia led the declaration for the protection of humanitarian personnel. One year on, more than twothirds of the UN has signed on. With Jordan, I co-chared the inaugural meeting of signitaries taking forward practical steps to improve protection and accountability. We committed a further $10 million for stronger protection measures, including security training, evidence collection, and assistance to victims and families. I continue to work with Zombies family as we press Israel for accountability and for justice. In Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan, and conflict zones everywhere, humanitarians dedicate their lives to protecting others. This work should never cost them their own. In the Middle East, we have committed new assistance for Palestinian recovery and institutional reform as we work with partners to keep the hope of a two-state solution alive. We believe this is the only way to secure lasting peace and security for Israelis and Palestinians. We continue to call for deescalation and for an end to the conflict in Iran. At the UN, Australia joined the EU no fees, no tolls pledge against coercion at sea. Alongside 80 nations, we called for the full reopening of the state of Hummus and condemned condemned Houthy attacks. Tomorrow, I will travel to the United States for the third Quad Foreign Ministers meeting this year and the G20 foreign ministers meeting, continuing our work for Australia's security and prosperity. Can I thank the chair and the committee for moving the day of this hearing to accommodate this travel. Can I also take this opportunity to thank the secretary and all of the personnel at DEFAT both here and abroad for all their work ongoing work to protect and advance Australia's interests. Chair deteriorating international circumstances will continue to confront us but they will not confound us. We will continue to take the world as it is and we will continue our work to shape it for the better in the interests of the Australian people. Thank you.
Thanks, Minister, and I'm sure your office will be happy to provide us with a copy of that for us to circulate to the committee. Um, Secretary, do you have an opening statement?
>> Uh, thank you, chair, with your in indulgence. Chair, senators, uh, since I last appeared before you, DEFAT has continued to deliver at a time of volatility and increased global contest. We are strengthening Australia's security and prosperity, providing trusted services, and responding effectively to crisis. Most recently, DEFAT led Australia's response to the devastating floods in Nepal and Tibet, China. Floods that left more Australians missing overseas, 34, than any single incident in over a decade. We brought together Australian agencies to tailor support for the families of missing Australians who are experiencing unimaginable grief and to support the search and rescue and humanitarian effort. Senators, we want to ensure a favorable strategic balance for Australia and for a peaceful, stable, and prosperous Indo-Pacific. Since the committee last met, we have delivered significant outcomes for Australia's partnerships in the Pacific. We signed the Nakamal agreement with Vanuatu and the Vali Union and Ocean of Peace alliance with Fiji. and we are advancing agreements with the Solomon Islands and with Tonga. Our Pukpook alliance with Papio and New Guinea has taken the relationship to the next level as demonstrated last week at the ministerial forum with 27 ministers participating. We want all countries of our region to have the freedom to develop and shape their futures. To do this, our engagements in regional institutions are more crucial than ever. That is why we amplified Pacific voices at the pre-op leaders meeting and backed in new security and gender equality initiatives at the Pacific Island forum leaders meeting in Palao on the fifth anniversary of the Azan Australia comprehensive strategic partnership. We remain committed to Azian centrality and the Azianled architecture and committed to deepening our bilateral relationships demonstrating that Australia is a steadfast and reliable partner. We've increased support for maritime and security cooperation with the Philippines. We've bolstered the security of essential supplies with Singapore. Minister Wong la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la launched the next phase of our flagship economic governance program with Indonesia's new foreign minister in Jakarta last week. Recent visits by world leaders to Australia including India's prime minister Modi, Thailand's prime minister Anuin and Vietnam's general secretary and state president Toam among others underscore our reputation for addressing shared challenges with partners. The purpose of our international engagement is to make Australia stronger, safer, and more prosperous. We are investing in our relationships with Japan, Korea, the United Kingdom, and the United States and others to build resilience, including through the Quad. Earlier this month, I participated in the inaugural Australia Japan leadership dialogue announced by the Prime Minister and Prime Minister Takayichi in May and the strategic consultations with my Japanese counterpart. I had the opportunity to reiterate to Japanese officials, as I have done so before this committee, that Australia supports Japan's efforts to maintain dialogue with China, to deescalate tensions in support of regional stability and international law while also opposing economic coercion. Australia also continues to engage China on the full range of Australia's interests. More broadly, DEFAD is reinforcing our economic security by working to preserve and o and improve open rules-based trade. We pushed for practical change in multilateral fora in the WTO, the G20, OECD, APEC, and the UN where Australia's bid for a seat on the security council is underway centered on our commitment to protection, oceans and climate and digital futures. Stepping up to the table, not vacating it for other others, gives Australia a stronger voice in the decisions that affect us and our region. At UN High Level Week, in front of the largest annual gathering of world leaders, Australia showed its credentials for promoting international peace and security through the rule of law. Minister Wong led more than 130 countries in strengthening global commitment to the protection of humanitarian personnel. We signed a bilateral security agreement with Ukraine and announced more than 100 new sanctions against Russia. And we helped set up cross regional coalitions on a range of critical issues, including AI and protecting children online. As Australians travel overseas in increasing numbers, DEFAT's global network is invaluable. We issue more than 100,000 travel documents yearly. We handle almost 30,000 consular cases each year. We're also seeing a growing number of complex consular cases, including mental health, financial hardship, welfare concerns, child custody, and legal issues, often requiring sustained support. Last year, we managed more than 3,700 welfare and other serious matters cases globally, a 27% increase on the previous year. Staff at DEFAT take pride in serving Australians and advance and advancing Australia's interests around the world. I'm proud of the fact that our passport and consular services are consistently top ranked as the most trusted among government agencies according to the Australian public service commission survey. DEFAT staff are also working in Kev, Riad and other locations affected by conflict, dangerous and demanding conditions and I would like to take this opportunity to thank them for their remarkable dedication. Thank you, chair.
Thank you very much, Secretary. I'm assuming you're also provide us with a copy.
>> Of course.
>> Excellent. Okay. Well, on that note, to kick off today, I'm going to hand over to Senator Paterson.
>> Um, Minister, I want to start with the public reporting yesterday around what appears to be a targeted hack of an Australian journalist and political commentator attributed to Iran. Uh, Shi Marson, a journalist at News 24, and Michael Kroger, a political commentator. I should disclose I'm a regular guest on Sherry's program and I've known Michael Kroger for 20 years, but I'm raising it not because of I know them, but because it's a concerning report. Um, are you familiar with this issue?
>> Uh, only through the media at this point, Senator.
>> Yep.
>> Obviously.
>> So, just to recap for everyone's benefit, um, a former administration official in the United States had one of their accounts compromised and reached out to Ms. Markson to set up a meeting. And as a result of that process, you know, her personal data was compromised. Um that Mike Burgess has made some public comments attributing this to the Islamic Republic of Iran and I believe the IRGC specifically. Um you know, how concerning is it that uh this regime appears to be targeting Australian nationals?
>> Uh look, this is obviously a matter for home affairs. I'm but I'm happy to make some general comments. Um I think you would be aware that uh uh this government took unprecedented action uh in expelling the Iranian ambassador um uh after having had continuous um diplomatic relations for decades. uh and it was the first um uh inc uh decision by government uh of this I think in since World War the end of World War II. Uh and we did that because of the evidence uh and the advice uh from agencies about the work of the um IRGC in Australia and their links to the anti-semitic attacks uh on Australian soil. Uh that is unacceptable. Um uh so I think we are very aware uh of uh the way in which uh the um IRGC uh has operated in Australia and in other countries. Uh on the specifics of this uh as you correctly identified uh this was Ms. Marxon was as I understand through the media advised by the director general of Azio. uh this would be a matter uh for home affairs rather than for DEFA.
>> Sure. Yes. I'm uh interested in the diplomatic implications of it which is why I'm asking about it here. Um this is continued malign conduct from a malign regime and we now have a journalist uh and a political commentator who've been targeted by this regime and had in one instance their personal data compromised. My understanding from the reporting is that um the attempts to disrupt Mr. Kroger's uh personal data was not successful, but a journalist has had their personal data stolen by a foreign authoritarian regime that has launched what the Australian government assess to be terror attacks on Australian soil. And in his public comments about it, Mr. Burgger said he's concerned that uh the regime is capable of and may have the intent to carry out further acts of violence in Australia. Um so the question is what are the implications for the diplomatic relationship and any further steps that the government would consider taking in response to this?
Uh well, first I would make the general proposition that Australia uh will not and does not tolerate attempts by Iranian agents to surveil, to harass or to intimidate individuals in Australia, whether they are members of the Iranian diaspora or journalists uh conducting their work or political um uh individuals. And it full stop. Uh second, we'll obviously take advice always uh uh from security agencies about in particular matters including more generally. Uh but we have already expelled the Iranian ambassador.
>> A third Australian contacted me overnight after having seen the reporting and recognized the pattern of behavior and they believe they too have been a victim of this attack. um they are now I won't reveal their identity. It's not appropriate. But they are now dealing with our agencies to assess whether or not that's correct or not and that has to be you know assessed by our agencies. It's up to them to make a judgment. But if it is the case that it wasn't just these two people and that other Australians have also been targeted that a wider group of people may be targeted in these operations. How
Senator, I've given you our principal view, which is we do not tolerate attempts by Iran to behave towards Australians or on Australian soil in the way you've outlined. I I am reluctant to get drawn into responding on a a threat which is as you said already before the security agencies. Um the government has made its position clear. We do not tolerate the harassment or intimidation uh or the surveillance of Australians or individuals in Australia. Uh and we have taken the strongest possible action against Iran in including the expulsion of the ambassador. And I would I would make the point as I've made previously in this um hearing. Uh we have taken stronger action against Iran than any previous Australian government.
>> Uh it's true, isn't it, that our embassy in Thran is is closed currently. Is that
>> Um, Senator, my name is Ralph King. I'm the first assistant secretary of Middle East Africa Division. Yes. The embassy is currently suspended operations is no longer operating there.
>> That's right. And that was done after the Australian government's decision to expel the Iranian ambassador and also to list the IRGC as a terrorist organization.
>> That's correct, Senator.
>> And and obviously a prudent measure for the safety of DEFAT personnel. >> Yes. Um it's been raised with me with members of the Iranian Australian uh diaspora that um it's of course very welcome that the Iranian ambassador to Australia has been expelled but that Iran's embassy continues to operate here in Australia. What is the government's uh thinking about continuing to permit that uh embassy to operate on our soil?
Senator, the view is that um we have retained a formal channel to make clear and continue to make clear our concerns about Iranian actions and to pursue our national interests and the embassy in Canberra serves as a conduit for that purpose. We do regularly communicate them and including our views on Iran's destabilizing actions and our complete rejection of their interference in our
affairs. H I do understand that argument, but a similar argument was made prior to our decision to expel the ambassador and prior to our decision to list the IRGC as a terrorist organization. When I and other uh members of parliament advocated for both of those things, we were told that would shut down channels of communication, that the bilateral relationship was important, that we we shouldn't do that.
>> So the threshold >> Yeah. the threshold of IRGC on Australian soil being part of organizing for attacks against Australian on Australian soil in order to pro to ferment fear and division. uh obviously and you know there is a threshold that was um where the government took unprecedented action to expel the ambassador and also I would make the point we have imposed um I think it's some 230 um sanctions on some 230 Iranian linked persons and including more than 100 IRGC linked individuals and entities. Uh and we have also listed as you said the RGC as a state sponsor of terrorism. >> So um we have taken action Senator um
>> no one's suggesting otherwise minister.
>> Well in fact if I may far more action than uh the government that you were part of ever took.
>> Um so is there any threshold which the regime could cross to your point minister? threshold was crossed. I agree. When they were sponsoring terror attacks on Australian soil, is there any threshold that they could cross that would lead to the embassy in CRA being closed down?
>> Um I I have to differ with my officers here. Um the decision [clears throat] to keep open the end embassy uh was primarily because excuse uh there are still visa passport service and other essential p paperwork that um Iranian Australians require. >> Um with respect to Dr. King. Um I I don't I I don't regard the embassy primarily as the way we um communicate uh to the Iranians. I think that was communicated by our sanctions, the listing as a terrorist organization and the expulsion of the ambassador
>> indeed. And we can make public statements any time.
>> Sorry, may I? Yes. Yeah. Thank you. So, you know, they are lower level staff uh uh for the purposes practical practical engagement that some Iranian Australians still need.
>> We obviously have do not travel advice, very strong do not travel advice to Iran for very good reasons. Um, and certainly my perception based on the feedback I've received from Iranian Australians is that a very large number of them, I couldn't assess whether it's the majority or or I haven't done a poll, but the very large number of them are very concerned about the continuing operations of the embassy. They feel uh threatened by that and they are concerned that it could be used uh against their interests. You know, at what point does that convenience of visa processing and document access become less important than the safety of the Iranian Australian diaspora and also our journalists and other public figures.
>> The safety of Iranian Australians is always a front of mind, Senator, and we would take advice from security agencies on those issues.
>> So, you would be willing uh on advice to close the Iranian embassy if necessary?
>> I'm not going to speculate on advice from security agencies. Well, I'm not
asking you to speculate on what their advice might be. I'm asking you to tell me what the government's thinking is on uh whether there are any circumstances, any activity that the regime could engage in that would lead to the embassy being closed.
>> That the safety of Australians is our first priority. >> That's the answer I would give you.
>> Well, I think these questions are reasonable because when opposition senators, myself included, asked could we list the IRGC as a terrorist organization, we were told no. No. When we asked could the ambassador be expelled, we were told no. and subsequently the government did both of those things and we strongly support that and welcome that. So I think it is reasonable to test whether something that currently is not contemplated could be contemplated in the future if a threshold is crossed
>> and I think I've answered that by saying what our first priority is which is the
yes. There are circumstanc
>> um I have answered your question by saying the first priority is the safety of Australians. Full stop. Uh I'm not going to get into speculating about what the advice of particularly in this forum and you you understand that what the advice of securities might agencies might or might not be. Uh I'm not going to do that. >> Uh and uh I'm not going to get into hypotheticals. Uh but when it comes to the safety of Australians, that is our So we would make any decisions that we thought uh and were advised were necessary to protect the security of Australians as we have done.
>> Okay. So I interpret from that that there are circumstances under which you would be would be willing to close the embassy and I think that is an important uh statement. Um chair I have other topics to move on to but if you need to rotate the call I'm happy to break
>> if you want but otherwise
>> I I'll come back again.
>> Yeah. Okay. All right. I know Senator Shouri has a block I'll give him and then um I'll come to others. Senator Shouri.