Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 47:53 to 1:14:56
Officials address coordination with the UK on Israeli settlement sanctions and provide updates on travel safety campaigns following methanol poisoning deaths in Laos.
Topics: Israel, Human rights, Travel and event costs
Speakers: Hon Penny Wong, Elizabeth McGregor, Senator David Shoebridge, Speaker 8, Dr Fiona Webster, Interjection, Senator Raff Ciccone
>> Uh thanks chair and thanks Minister and Secretary for your openings today and your attendance. >> Um I have some questions regarding the decision by Canada, France and the UK to introduce an import ban on products from illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank. And of course that coincided with the correspondence uh signed by 12 countries which included those countries together I think with Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Poland, Norway, Spain, um Ireland, Portugal and Sweden to take further action in relation to products from illegal settlements.
>> Can I just get the correct officers here, please? >> We have sanctions. >> Sorry, that's fine. I'd vote. Dr. Vodster will be
>> all right. Thank you. Um, was Australia approached by all or any of these
>> Thank you, Senator Dr. Fiona Webster. I'm the uh acting deputy secretary for international legal and consular group. Uh, yes, the answer is yes.
>> Okay. Um, and which were the countries that Australia um uh was was approached by? Was it was it all of them? Was it primarily the UK? Who were the main discussions with?
>> The statement, as you know, was led by the UK.
>> All right. And it was the UK that approached and and Australia had discussions with.
>> That is correct.
>> All right. Um uh when was Australia first approached by the UK? And I I assume it was an offer from the UK to join with the statement. Was that the Was that what the UK
>> I don't have those details in front of
>> All right. But the UK reached out to Australia and offered to Australia to join the statement. Is that right?
>> It's not unusual for a country that's leading on a statement to seek our views. That's correct.
>> Yes, I know it's not unusual, but I but I'm just I'm asking about this specific case. So, the UK reached out to Australia and said, "We're making we're proposing to make this statement. Will
They discussed they they discussed the fact that they were going to do a statement on on sanctions. Yes.
>> And no doubt they reached out to Australia because Australia has repeatedly said it would act in this regard with like-minded nations. And I assume we consider the UK to be a like-minded nation. Is that right?
>> Yes, we are one of a number of like-minded countries with the UK. Um,
if I may, Senator, excuse [clears throat] me. I, um, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we work very closely with the United Kingdom. Uh, I've worked now with, I think it's five >> British foreign secretaries. Uh, uh, including, uh, obviously Ed who um, Secretary Milliband who was recently appointed. uh we we engage have engaged on reform on the recognition of Palestine. We've engaged on the sanctioning of ministers Matritz and Bengavir. We've engaged and coordinated on a uh many of the statements as you know what has been um and I know your party has been dismissive of this but we have moved Australia's position in international forum forums for on on the issue [clears throat] of both uh on two states on the issue on what is occurring in Gaza and what is occurring in West Bank very substantially over the period of this government and we have often done that not always uh in coordination with the United Kingdom. There have been points where we have uh moved first. There have been points where the UK have moved first over this period. Uh we are all grappling with how you deal with and I do note that the Israeli election um uh obviously has occurred over the last 24 hours. Um we are all grappling with the uh Netanyahu government's policies in particular in the west on this issue in in in the West Bank uh are inconsistent with the prospect of two states uh and we do believe and I know that there are others who have different views but we have a very clear view that the only way to secure peace and security for both Israelis and Palestinians is for there to be two states. Uh when we came to government u we made decisions in relation to uh these issues uh including nmanllete uh and uh reverse the decision of the previous government in relation to Jerusalem. Uh we have uh made clear our continued opposition to the settlements. Uh we have been clear uh about our view as to settler violence and we have sanctioned uh settler entities and individuals who are involved in uh perpetrating violence or inciting uh uh others against um Palestinians in the West Bank. Uh we are all grappling with the decision by the Netanyahu government uh to accelerate settlement activity. of course there are discussions and have been discussions about what is the best way to respond including uh over a period of time uh with uh different under the the Starman government as well as under the Bernham government. Um I can go where you where you want to go. Why why did we not join this statement? I think I'd refer you to what I said in the parliament. Um you know we we are moving in the same direction. Doesn't mean we do precisely everything at the same time. Uh I indicated we would look at targeted sanctions uh rather than a blanket ban and I would note that the UK has as yet not implemented although it has announced
such a ban. Uh when was the decision not to participate communicated to the
[cough and clears throat] >> Senator? Um it was communicated to them before the statement was released. >> I don't have that detail.
who was responsible for overseeing the communications between the United Kingdom and Australia in relation to this? Was that in your wheelhouse, Dr.
Webster? It was in my wheelhouse, Senator, but it is often done through our high commission in London.
>> It would have it's it was an important matter, I assume.
>> Very important. Yes.
>> So, I'll ask you again. I'll ask you again. When was the decision communicated to the UK that Australia would not participate in the statement?
>> It, as I said, it was communicated before the statement was released.
>> When? When? [clears throat]
>> I don't have that detail in front of me.
>> Well, will you provide it on notice, please? specific objections to the proposed measures during negotiations? Were there elements that Australia objects to? If
>> Senator, I I've I think I refer you to what I said in the Senate. I mean, um, I don't think it's right to to describe it's not a negotiation in the way that you are you might be implying. um we have worked together on multiple statements. There have been um uh so many occasions in which CAN's sometimes CAN's UK. So CANs is Canada, Australia, New Zealand. Sometimes it's Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK. Sometimes we've had Japan and Korea join. I think on uh some of the um uh statements we we had Japan but not the United Kingdom. So there has been a group of countries [clears throat] who are all trying to deal with the situation the the horrific situation we have seen in Gaza and the actions of the Israeli the Netanyahu government in the West Bank. So you know there are discussions which might occur uh CRA to London and might occur in London. Uh but we were very clear which way what what the UK was proposing. The judgment that the government had to make was would we uh go down the path of agreeing ahead of time to an announcement of blanket bans or whether we would look at an alternative of more targeted measures and the government made aision decision
to do the latter. Was the decision to not sign on to the statement was it made by you foreign minister? Was it made by the prime minister? Was it made by
>> It's a decision um of senior ministers.
>> Which senior ministers?
>> I'm not going to go. These these are matters of government. It's a decision
was it a decision of you and the prime
minister? I I've just said it's a decision of the government.
>> Well, you said which senior ministers. You said you said you said senior ministers and I'm asking you which senior ministers.
>> It's a decision of the government.
>> All right. Did it go to cabinet?
>> I'm not going to comment on cabinet processes.
>> I'm not asking you to comment on what the what the discussions in cabinet were. I'm asking whether or not this was a decision of cabinet. It's an incredibly important decision. You've set out that you know there's been a long history of working with the United Kingdom. This is an occasion where Australia has not followed what is broadly uh seen as a a very welcome move by the United Kingdom. Um such an important deviation from previous practice. Did it go to cabinet?
>> Um I'd make two points. The first is there have been occasions where we have been ahead of the United Kingdom if if you want to put it that way um in terms of our willingness to make certain statements. In fact, [snorts] in um through this conflict, the original uh grouping of Canada, Australia, New Zealand was because we wanted to go further than the than the United Kingdom at that point uh in relation to the So, I don't think it's I just wanted to to make sure that you know that dynamic was clear. Um, [snorts] it is the case, Senator, that disclosure of whether an item goes to cabinet is disclosure of that fact. So, there's a long-standing convention that we don't comment on that. But this was [clears throat] a
rationale for rejecting this call was apparently because, and I'll quote here, I think it's from you, Prime Minister. We are concerned blanket import bans present practical challenges, including how to ensure they do not inadvertently harm Palestinian businesses, workers, and livelihoods. Minister, has any Palestinian or human rights group raised these concerns with you and said that they [clears throat] share those concerns? And if so, please
>> Senator, can I just make this point? I would ask you, and I'm sure you won't recognize this because um that is the nature of political debate. But um we have already sanctioned entities for actions in the West Bank. Um we have already sanctioned um extremist settlers entities that are responsible for um violence and human rights abuses. Already Australians cannot trade with these entities. So already Australian law bans buying, importing or transporting goods from sanctioned individuals and entities. So we have already done that. Um the UK has announced that it will do a blanket ban. Uh as yet it has not implemented it and we certainly will um look at uh what they and engage with them uh about how they are going to construct that and whether they are going to ban all uh products from settlements or whether they are going to exempt any products from
>> Minister. My question was about has any
>> Why is it you feel I would like to get
the question answered?
>> The minister is answering minister.
what the UK does. uh and in answer to your question, I have already engaged not on this issue but on the broader issue of progress towards uh implementation of the peace plan uh with the Palestinian Authority and I would anticipate uh that um uh we would engage particularly post what the UK does with them as well um [clears throat] to gain uh any insights that they have.
>> Minister,
>> last question and I've got to move the
call around. Minister, there is not a single Palestinian group or human rights group that in any way supports your rationale for not including for not not implementing a blanket import ban. and and and they are almost to a to a person offended that the rationale for not putting a blanket ban on illegal Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian land is allegedly to not cause inadvertent harm to Palestinian businesses, workers, and livelihoods. The harm that is being caused to Palestinians in the occupied West Bank is because of the illegal settlements. It's because of the the violence directed at Palestinians. It's because of the fact that the Israeli state doesn't prevent that violence. A and when they see you say the reason your government won't put a blanket ban on illegal Israeli settlements is because you're trying to protect Palestinians, they've been to a person offended by that from the communications I've seen. Have you not heard that? Have you not heard that call from the Palestinian community and from human
rights groups? Well, Senator, um the only thing, no, the thing that you said with which I do agree, uh which with which the government agrees and our policy position reflects that uh is that we we disagree with and oppose uh the the former Netanyahu government's policy uh and the consequences of that policy in relation to the West Bank. Uh we believe um their actions that have been taken by both individuals and uh the actions and policy of certain government ministers are um uh the opposite of peace uh and um have compromised the human rights of Palestinians in the West West Bank. We do believe that which is why we have implemented sanctions uh and why we have taken the action we have taken and why we will act we will take further action.
>> All right on that note all around now Senator Dalling I'll give you a block and then I'll come back to Senator Paterson. Senator Ding
>> thank you chair. Well I think as we approach another year of schoolies um reflect on the uh tragic death of uh Bianca Jones and Holly BS in Laos in November 2024. due to methanol poisoning. And I want to ask the government uh with schoolies approaching, what what is the government doing to improve travel safety for young
Australians? >> Is that to me or
>> Yes, it is, Minister.
>> Oh, sorry. I thought the officials would can I start by just again saying I think all Australians were shocked, distressed uh by the news of um the deaths of Holly and Bianca um and what happened to um Bianca and Holly and the four other young travelers in Banging should never have happened. Um these I've had the privilege of engaging with the families um uh and I know that this tragedy weighs so heavily on them uh and they're in our thoughts. Um we have advocated at every level for a thorough and transparent investigation into Lao in Lao and for those responsible to be held to account. Uh I've engaged we've engaged repeatedly at officer level but also at the highest level of the Lao governments. I've raised this with the Lao deputy prime minister and foreign minister. Uh and we will continue and do continue to press for justice. Um uh and I know that uh this has been uh such a hard road for the Morton BS and Jones families um uh and um how deeply painful this has been and how bitterly disappointing this legal process has been for them. At the same time, we have been working to ensure that young more young people are aware of the dangers that can await them overseas. Uh, and I was um really honored to be invited um by Bianca's parents um to men's grammar uh for that reason. Uh uh I think it was last month or earlier this month. So we are approaching school this season as you as you rightly point out and many Australians uh young Australians embark on some exciting adventures many for the first time abroad. Uh and what we want is to make sure they are aware of potential dangers. So I did spend that evening with parents and teachers and students. I'm pretty excited about what the future might hold. But the message I shared was this. Have a plan. Know where the nearest hospital is. Keep the DFAD emergency consular number saved in your phone. I also said make sure you write it down somewhere includes in case you lose your phone. Stick with your mates. Don't leave anyone behind. Do not drink from unlabeled bottles. Don't accept free shots or drinks that are unusually >> Uh drink from trusted brands and sealed bottles if you're drinking. Um because methanol can be in a free shot or that unmarked bottle. And as you know, you can't smell it, you can't taste it, you can't see it. Uh and in the hours after, it can feel like a bad night. Um we talked about um what you do if you have a friend who's in trouble and if you notice a friend's got blurred vision or has trouble breathing or feels sicker than the number of drinks that they've had, explain that's an emergency. Don't try and wait and sleep it off. Get medical help straight away. Um, now I'm sure that um, you know, that's good advice. I have to say it's advice even as a young person when I was traveling overseas. I didn't know. so given we're assuming that most um, school levers aren't watching SE Senate estimates. Um, we are just to let the committee know we are partnering with Drinkwise. We're partnering with Red Frogs so young Australians can carry that knowledge with them. Uh we've also put a um a travel smart test online so school levers can do a practical kind of a test that that put makes them ask them what they would do in certain situations. Um check their knowledge so they can have fun and stay safe. So, I would say this to every young person out there. You know, do go and Say goodbye to your parents at the airport. Send lots of photos, but look after yourself. Look after your mates and come home safely.
>> Thank you for that uh insight, Minister. And I think as you point out, um no, many young kids probably aren't watching these hearings right now. So, maybe I could ask the department some of the channels you're using uh through digital and others. Obviously, most people beware very aware of the Smart Traveler, but I understand there's a partying safely uh hub, and there's a range of other measures now to try to um reach younger audiences.
>> Yes. Uh Elizabeth McGregor, first assistant secretary, consular and crisis management division. Um we do use a range of channels uh to get these messages out to uh young travelers. And what I would say is that our approach on smart traveler is always practical and it's evidence-based. Um we want to help young Australians to understand alcohol related risks and to make safer choices overseas. So we take a broad approach to partying safely. Um we look at how we can strengthen the approach as well. So we work with other agencies. uh particularly this year we've worked with the department of health disability and aging on how we can expand our alcohol safety messaging and uh what that messaging emphasizes is that young people do not need to drink to enjoy schoolies uh and that choosing not to drink is also an option uh and may be the safest choice. Um but we also continue to provide practical harm minimization advice for those who do choose uh to drink. Um the channels that we use um we have partying safely hub uh which is the central source of practical safety information for young people heading overseas. uh that was launched by the foreign minister on the 10th of September 2025 and it brings together advice on alcohol safety uh methanol poisoning, drink spiking, drugs, travel insurance and other risks as well as resources for young travelers, parents, schools and univers universities. That hub supports a broader communications effort. Uh we use social media, we use digital advertising. Uh we go to schools uh that drink wires event uh that was part of that effort. Um the airports, we work with them, travel providers uh and partners and all of that messaging is effectively reaching young people where they are and directing them to trusted Australian government advice. Um, just to give you some numbers, since its launch, the hub has been viewed nearly 20,000 times by over 14,000 Australians and their parents. And we're continuing to update that hub as we go. Uh, it has a range of resources there. It has research, it has partner materials. Uh in 2026, as the minister mentioned, we also launched Travel Smarts, uh which is a scenario-based choose your own adventure style learning tool. Uh it's really fun, it's interactive, and it's educational.
>> Great. Thank you. And can I ask you, you reflected on um it being evidence-based. So where do you get the evidence to sort of suggest what you should be advising what works and do you have particular uh performance targets or metrics you're trying to achieve through the um travel smart traveler or party safely hub?
>> Uh yes. Uh thank you Senator. We do do a range of market research. um to examine uh how that uh messaging is going and to make sure that it's effective. Um and we do take an evidence-led approach uh to all of that. So it involves audience research, testing, tracking uh and evaluation as well. Um so under the smart traveler advoc advertising campaign uh that research that we undertake uh informs our target audience uh our message framing our creative development and also our channel selection. Uh we test concepts with the target audience before the launch. Uh we track performance during the campaign and we formally evaluate the results to refine our approach. Uh for example, the 2025 schoolies campaign with drink wires included pre and post campaign research to understand young travelers behaviors and to assess whether those messages reached the intended audience and supported safer decision making. We supplemented that with targeted research to gain deeper insights into specific audiences and emerging trends. Uh recent studies have explored Gen Z behavior uh the use of AI in travel planning which is increasing. Uh we've also looked at travel behaviors uh information needs and preferred communication travels of culturally and linguistically diverse young Australians. Um our results have confirmed that this evidence-led approach that we're taking is quite effective. Um, our evaluation of the current No Before You Go campaign found 49% campaign recall uh and 83% reported taking a key action after having viewed that campaign such as visiting smart traveler or preparing more thoroughly for travel. Um the schoolies evaluation found that 72% of international schoolies attendees surveyed considered the campaign messages were important and 68% said the campaign would help attendees make better choices. Um so I think we have some numbers there to back up that this campaign uh is cutting through to the right audiences.
>> Great to hear how effective that campaign is going. Thank you, Chair.
>> Thanks a lot, Senator. Now, Senator Paterson.