Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 1:14:56 to 2:00:40
The Minister defends the government's position on recognizing Palestinian statehood and discusses engagement with UN special rapporteurs regarding climate and fossil fuel subsidies.
Topics: Israel, Human rights, Climate change
Speakers: Hon Penny Wong, Senator James Paterson, Dr Fiona Webster, Senator Steph Hodgins-May, Dr Ralph King, Angela Robinson, Interjection, Jan Adams, Senator Raff Ciccone, Will Nankervis
questions on recognition of Palestinian statehood for relevant officials. Uh when the government announced recognition of Palestinian statethood in August last year, it said that there are a number of preconditions to that recognition. Could you just remind me
Uh thank you Senator uh Fiona Webster uh acting deputy secretary international security legal and consular group. Um when we recognized the state of Palestine we took into account the commitments of the PA to the following reform governance terminate prisoner payments institute schooling reforms demilitarize and hold general elections.
>> Thank you. And what was DEFAT's advice to government at the time about the prospects of uh those reforms?
>> The um Senator, the as you as as my colleagues just said, those commitments are given by the Palestinian Authority, who made them clear. We have continued to make clear to the Palestinian Authority that we hold them to account and that we're monitoring, as are other partners, their progress on these
reforms. H but um the PA saying that they're going to do something is one thing, but DEFAT is capable of deter making an independent assessment of how likely those are. And so what was DEFAT's advice at the time about the the prospects for each of those preconditions?
>> Senator, the key element as I understand it in recognition of Palestine was to keep the two-state solution alive. We did that with partners. That was the the primary motivation for recognizing Palestine at that time. I'm unaware of the assessment made with specific for reforms except for the fact that we have remained in touch with the Palestinian Authority to hold them to account and we are satisfied they are making progress on that basis.
>> So DAT didn't do an assessment of how likely it was that the PA would deliver.
I am unaware of that and I would have to get back to you on that. Senator,
>> you weren't in the substantive role at the time or just another official or >> please
>> if I can just answer uh I mean obviously we don't go into details in this
committee and detailed advice from the department to the minister on policy issues that uh inform government
decisions. Well, as as you know, M. Adams, in your experience in this committee, we don't accept uh advice to government as an excuse not to answer a question. Has to be a public interest immunity claim, and advice to government's never been accepted by the Senate as a reason not to answer a question. So, did did DEFAP provide this
>> Uh I think what uh has already been said uh is the is the is the key point. uh the the decision took into account the commitments of the PA to those uh those elements and made clear that uh we would continue to press the PA to uh implement
>> But if if Australia's making
>> Can I can I just intervene because I think you're setting up if I may because it's not very fair. It's not fair to officials for you to set up a hard binary which is not quite the way we articulated it. Um, Australia's position is predicated on the commitments we have received from the PA. We will continue to work with the international community to hold the Palestinian Authority to its commitments and to encourage normalized relations between Israel uh and its neighbors. uh and I can attest I can say to you that this is something we have engaged particularly with the United Kingdom uh and Canada about but more broadly uh with others who are part of the recognition shift and as you know the overwhelming majority of our like-minded partners uh have now recognized Palestine uh was that this would require work uh and uh whether it is work on um governance, whether it is work on um uh uh education reform uh or a range of other areas as well as the election process which you've discussed. Um, we also know that if we're serious about two states, I appreciate you have a different view about two states.
>> That's
>> or sorry, you have a different view about whether Australia should contribute to it.
>> No,
>> no, you do. You want to wait and see if it happens.
>> Don't verbal.
>> Oh, sorry. I apolog the the the Conservative's position. >> The opposition [clears throat] the opposition's position. the opposite
position is not relevant to the
questions about I think what I would say to you is we have worked with for example uh uh Indonesia and the PA in relation to progress on some of those issues and Dr. King or Dr. Webster, everyone's a doctor. Um, uh, can, uh, uh, take you through some of the programs we have engaged in, including our trilateral work. I, I will get them
to do that in a minute, but just before we get to that, you you said just then that the government's position is predicated on the commitments. So, if something is predicated on the commitments, then we need to know how likely it is that those commitments are going to be fulfilled. And if they're not fulfilled, we need to know what the consequences are. So that's why I asked if something is predicated on commitments, what assessment was made at the time about the likelihood of the Palestinian Authorities's ability to
>> I mean, I don't think we've got much much further to add. As Minister said, everybody knows that there's uh work to be done.
>> Senator, this is the problem with your continued tests, thresholds for the the Palestinian people that you know they that that that you keep setting before you will uh go to a two-state process. Meanwhile, um thousands of of people, including children, are displaced and human rights abuses continue to occur in the West Bank. uh and the former Israeli government uh continues to build settlements which render on the ground uh a two-state solution impos impossible or highly unlikely. So your position is we sit back and say, "Oh, they're not they're not good enough and we're not going to do anything about it." And whilst we allow the only prospect of peace in the Middle East to to be uh rendered impossible, I do not think that's responsible and I do not think that's in our interests. So we have a different view. We have recognized uh we are working with the P PA on how to progress those commitments. And what I've also said uh is we would link further practical steps on recognition by Australia uh uh with those commitments. So I've made that public.
>> The opposition's position is interesting and I look forward to debating that another time in another forum. But you're the government and this is Senate Estimates and this is where we ask about the government's policy.
>> No, I and I'm happy to talk about that. But I I I accept that. I I'm making a slightly different point. I'm actually making a philosophical point, a policy point with you because the position you're asserting is the position um the same position I think that that others have asserted for many years, which is uh we're not going to have we're not going to have progress towards two states. Scott between the parties and pal the Palestinians have to do A, B, and C. That ignores the reality of what the Netanyahu government sought to do, which was to make a two-state solution impossible on the ground. And so in the face of that, the theoretical proposition that we're just going to wait for the Palestinians to do all these things means you accept the removal of the possibility of two states by inaction. >> I'm actually just so it's a fundamental foreign policy
>> minister. I'm actually I'm actually not asserting anything this morning. I'm just asking questions about how the government's policy is working in reality.
>> Yes. And
>> And and I think that's reasonable and
Senator. Uh, but I'm saying to you where you where you're start, we start from a different position. You're saying you shouldn't do anything because you should just wait for all these things to happen. I'm saying if we do that, there is no Palestine left to recognize. >> Winston Churchill. No, if I may, there is no Palestine left to recognize if we just wait.
>> Yep. And
>> and that is the same position that the United Kingdom took. It's the same position that Canada took. Is the same position that France has taken. It is the same position that the mo all the so many of our like-mindeds have taken is that we cannot simply sit back and wait and watch the reality of a Palestinian state be uh removed.
>> Sure. Um I'm paraphrasing but Winston Churchill once said, "No matter how good the intentions are, occasionally we should check the results." So what I'm trying to do today is check the results uh on your good intentions
>> and the results of your position of an alternative.
>> We're the opposition.
>> Sure. So sorry. Sorry, you are the
government,
>> James. I'm not actually Senator Paterson. I'm not actually trying to set up an opposition >> political debate. Sort of seems like it. >> No, no. I'm I'm actually making a point which is it depends what your policy position is. >> Yeah. I'm just assessing I just want to assess how your policy is going. How's
it working out, Minister, is what I'm trying to get to.
>> And I am saying the alternative to to you are critical of this. Accept that you're entitled to be. But the alternative position,
>> I haven't even been critical yet. I'm just asking questions about how it's going.
>> Can I just finish? The alternative is that we sit back, the UK sits back, Canada sits back, all of Europe sits back, and we just wait for um the continuation of uh a whole range of activities which we know on the ground mean that there will never be a Palestinian state. And we're not prepared to do that.
>> You, Minister, as we all know, you won the election. you're the government, your policyy's been implemented. I'm just trying to see how that's going in practice. So, let's try and get to that if we can. So, we set out five areas of uh that our commitment was predicated on and that the policy and authority gave us asurances about >> uh governance. Uh sorry, can you run through them again for me? Governance.
>> Yeah. Sorry. Could you just
>> Could you set out those five preconditions again for me? Governance.
>> Uh, reform governance, terminate prisoner payments, institute schooling reforms, demilitarize and hold general elections.
>> Okay, let's go through that one by one. How are governance reforms going in the Palestinian?
>> Just before I do that, I just going to the foreign minister's point. Both the prime minister and the foreign minister have underscored to their counterparts in the Palestinian Authority the importance of following through on their commitments. >> Most recently, the foreign minister spoke to the Palestinian foreign minister on the 10th of August. And we have made very clear that further Australian steps on recognition such as establishing diplomatic relations will be considered once the PA makes further reform progress. So that that is the
we going on governance reforms?
>> Um, I can answer that, Senator. Um, you asked before, I believe, what practical and the minister alluded to this, what practical steps we were doing to help on this.
>> No, I don't think I did ask that question. Um, I'm asking how governance reforms are going.
>> Fine. In this case, we we assess um, Senator that the PA has made significant progress on it reform commitments along the metrics in social payments. We believe they've instituted a needs-based system for social payments. They substantially delivered on this. This is replacing the pay for slay arrangements.
>> I thought that was a second point, the payments issue. I'm I'm actually interested in governance for senator. >> Well, just to clear about what my question is, minister. Look,
>> Senator, can we let can we let chair can we just let the the official answer if the senator doesn't like the answer or he wants to follow up, he's perfectly entitled, could we let Dr. King provide his answer and then the senator can follow up, please?
Dr. King.
>> Um, >> Senator, I'm on the governance matter. I cannot give you a clear answer on that one. I'll come back to you on that one.
>> Could sorry, could you explain why you just said at the start you assessed there's been good progress made at governance and now you can't tell me.
>> No, I was I was I mentioned on the social payments. I was going to come to education after that, Senator.
>> Okay. Well, the first precondition was governance. Uh, you started your answer by saying you assess there's been significant progress on governance. I was a bit surprised by that. I'm not sure that um everyone would agree. So what progress has been made on governance?
>> Paterson, we've been uh delivering practical support on the governance issue through the UNP transparency, evidence, efficiency, effectiveness, and accountability program. We have provided $5 million over 2024 to 2027 to build Palestinian Authority capacity. Part of that is to improve government transparency, accountability, and public service delivery and also to support the Palestinian Central Election Commission to prepare for elections.
>> Thank you. To to clarify, I'm not asking about what Australia has done to assist the Palestinian Authority. I'm asking what progress has the Palestinian Authority made against the pro against each of these objectives. So, what is our assessment of the progress the Palestinian Authority has made on
I would have to come back to you on that, Senator.
>> none. They've made no progress on governance.
>> Senator, I I'd just like you to take you through some of the progress that has been made across those metrics.
>> Starting with governance. What progress has been made on governance?
official f two points. This is a hard and long process. uh and that is recognized by the fact we we are you know the the implementation of President Trump's peace plan which also talks about um uh progress uh on a range of governance fronts uh is still being implemented. So obviously uh uh this is a a process of reform which many parties including the United States uh but also Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Canada and the United Kingdom are engaged in. So yeah, it's not a ticker box process and if it were we probably would have peace in the Middle East. Can I just ask you to it is relevant what we are doing because your political proposition uh I think which is very um uh uh obvious uh uh is about whether it's been achieved um these are still a work in progress and it is important to see what we are doing now I think Dr. King indicated that there had been progress in the what were the payments? How did you describe the payments?
>> Social payments.
>> Before we get to that,
>> sorry, sorry. Can let me just get this.
>> No, no. Minister,
>> sorry. I'm just asking an official something. Can I just get this information?
>> This is on the social payment system which was hither too known as pay for
>> Right. Okay. So, he's indicated that and I think Dr. Webster was trying to take you through some of the work we have done and I would really like you to let her do that.
>> Thanks, Minister. I have limited time. There are other senators who might wish to ask different questions, but it's not up to you to tell me which questions I should ask in this forum.
>> No, I'm not telling you that. I'm saying you should let her answer in the way she sees fit.
>> But perhaps there are other senators. Perhaps a government senator is willing to ask a question that's not my question. My question is what progress has been made on governance. I haven't heard any answer about any progress made on governance. So if there is nothing to add because there has been no progress, we can move on to payments. But I just want to be clear that we don't have any assessment of progress on governance before we move on to payments.
>> We will get we'll get you an assessment on that, Senator.
>> Thank you. All right, let's move on to payments. What is your assessment about the improvement on payments?
>> So on uh the payments reform, Australia is working with partners to hold the PA to um account on uh its reform commitments, including on prisoner payments. As part of the PA's reform agenda, President Abbas committed publicly to repealing the law regarding payments to families of prisoners and martyrs and the implementation of a non-discriminatory social security system that is open to international Uh the July 2026 report by a US firm Alvarez and Marcel assessed that the social payment reform the so-called pay for slay has been substantially delivered. The PA has enacted new laws that apply the same eligibility standards to all families in need of social welfare assistance and has revoked previous laws and regulations related to the system of paying financial allowances to the families of prisoners, martyrs, and the wounded. The new system is being implemented by the Palestinian National Economic Empowerment Institution. On the 10th of November 2025, President Abbas dismissed PA Finance Minister Omar Beta after an internal investigation had showed that he'd authorized payments to Palestinian prisoners outside the guidelines of the new system. In January 2026, the PA completed an audit of databases and beneficiary eligibility documentation to ensure that all parts of the Palestinian government are complying with the new system.
>> Thank you. Just a couple of follow-up questions there. I noticed you you were used the word martr. Is that a terminology the Australian government
>> No, it is not. Senator,
>> That was a quote.
>> That was a quote.
>> Right. I'll just That's why I asked.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, so you said also that President Abbas committed to repeal the scheme. Has it actually been repealed?
>> Yes, he's enacted new laws.
>> So it has. It's not just a commitment to repeal. The legislation has been repealed.
>> Yes. So the assessment says from the consultants that Dr. Elson mentioned has been substantially delivered. There's a new system in place called Tanke.
>> Thank you. So there are no payments being made to uh people who've been convicted of terrorism.
>> That is our understanding.
>> Right. So so you would say that has been delivered
>> substantially delivered is what uh the report has said.
>> Substantially [snorts] leaves a bit of room. So what what aspects of it have not been delivered
then? Well, I can't go into the details of that, but we are pleased that new laws have been enacted and that there is a commitment to um stand by those laws and their implementation.
>> Sorry, can you just clarify why you can't go into the detail of what substantially delivered constitutes
>> because we're I don't have >> this is a report from the United States entity. So, obviously we have to we're relying on their report. >> Um and I'd again make the point these are reforms that are discussed in the Trump peace plan. Um so obviously there's a there's a lot of international eyes on this. Uh we have been we don't um we've been expelled from or removed from Ramala by the U by the Israeli government. So we actually don't have personnel on the ground to do this. Um others we rely on the work of others.
>> Okay. So our assessment is that that's been substantially we we concur with that assessment that it's been substantially
>> we believe it's a reliable um source document I think
>> and no and no payments are being made.
>> Well we're relying on what an an American entity has has ascertained.
>> Okay. U moving on to the schooling reforms. What's our assessment of progress on schooling
>> on education reform? Uh the Palestinian Authority is developing a new curriculum in line with UNESCO standards. um and they're partnering with the European Union on that initiative. Uh on the 16th to the 27th of April this year, Australia and Indonesia jointly delivered an education dialogue with the Palestinian Ministry of Education and Higher Education and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The program focused on integrating national curriculum into religious schools and strengthening teacher training and professional development. It showcased Indonesia's approach to education reforms and how Australia has supported those reforms through our department uh our development partnership.
>> Can I can I um just add to that, Senator? This was very important. Uh I really wanted us to work with Indonesia um on on something associated with prog um the PA reform process. Uh and there are a number of reasons for that. uh one amongst them is obviously they have a very different relationship uh with the Palestinians to to they are very close to and have worked with the Palestinian Authority over many years and so if we're really trying to support uh uh reform and therefore peace uh in the Middle East uh it is a very good partnership to work with Indonesia. It also goes to the closeness we have with um um with that with Indonesia that we we are trusted enough to work with them on this. So that was uh a a measure that I encouraged the foreign the former foreign minister Pakugono uh to agree to because I thought it was a good thing both in terms of our relationship with Indonesia but also uh the effectiveness of the engagement with the Palestinian Authority.
>> Thank you. So I mean one of the contentious issues in the space has been the incitement in uh educational materials uh dehumanization of Jews um advocacy of violence. So is it our assessment that those classroom materials in including textbooks and other teaching materials are no longer being taught in Palestinian Authority
>> It's our assessment Senator that there are very few instances of that. The textbooks are not provided by um the sorry I'll rephrase that. The um Palestinian Authority is working with the European Union on an initiative to deliver curriculum on UNESCO standards. We believe the instances of offensive material are very minor.
>> Could you expand on what you mean by very minor?
>> I I would have to check the figures, but they are very limited instances to the best of our understanding, Senator.
>> Right. cuz it I mean has previously been rife and we've all seen horrific examples of kind of the textbooks provided to kids with you know depicting Jews as devils and you know glorifying so-called martyrs terrorists. Um so that's not currently prevalent in the
>> That is not currently prevalent senator. They're working very seriously with the European Union on this and with UNESCO.
>> Thank you. Okay. Um moving on to demilitarization. What's our assessment of progress on demilitarization? Um that
is a a work in progress. To get a detailed response, you'd have to come back to you on that, Senator, but it is obviously a challenge because of the Hamas factor,
could you expand on that, please? I mean, saying it's a challenge is, you know, probably an understatement. the
you the PA security authorities work very closely with uh the Israeli authorities on this and their security partners but to get you a detailed assessment on progress on that I'd have to come back to you.
>> Okay.
>> This I mean this is part of President Trump's peace plan. So this is not an issue. This is not a bilateral issue about what can Australia do with
>> Minister to be clear I'm not holding you responsible.
>> No no but I'm I'm making the I'm making a slightly broader point actually and this is why this is all of the countries including obviously the US but also the the Arab and Muslim countries who who were central to negotiating that peace plan. This is something all and we were not part of that negotiating group obviously but we we we like the rest of the world supported it after it had been agreed but um this is a one of the challenges that um for implementing that peace plan that has to be manned.
>> Sure. Yeah. And look I I I'm not saying the Australian government is responsible for delivering this but the Australian government said its recognition was predicated on these things. So I'm just trying to understand to what extent they've been delivered. Um it doesn't sound like uh we're particularly
>> about which
>> about the delivery of demonetization
>> it's it's central to whether or not there can be two states
>> indeed.
>> So and that is a challenge for the whole world.
>> Okay. Um moving on to elections. Uh, I think President Abbas is 21 years into his four-year term. Um, how are we going on elections?
>> Senator, the um the minister joined other minister counterparts in expressing our disappointment at the postponement of the elections. Um, and we called on them as we've called them in Ramla to ensure elections take place without delay. It was part of their um commitment as you as we've said before and we continue to make clear their expectations on that matter.
>> Were we surprised that we've had yet another delay in Palestinian Authority elections?
>> As the minister said, we were disappointed in it.
>> Disappointed doesn't seem um all that strong. I mean, it's one of the core commitments. This is not the first time.
>> To be quite be clear, we were deep we expressed deep disappointment. Yes,
>> deep disappointment. Okay. Well, that's that's a bit stronger. Um, why should we anticipate that there will ever be elections in the Palestinian Authority given how often they have now been delayed?
I think that's asking Dr. King for an opinion.
>> Not on a matter of policy on
>> No, it it is an opinion. Um Um,
orders only
>> Am I allowed to finish my answer?
>> You are, Minister. you are.
>> That's Thank you. I'll start again. I think you're asking Dr. King to express an opinion. The way I would respond to you know, credible and elections are an important element of what the Palestinian Authority has committed to the whole of the international community, not just to Australia. uh and on reform, democratic renewal and governance. Uh and what I've also said as is we see this is linked to further practical steps on recognition um such as the establishment of reciprocal
>> So to be clear, the standing orders prevent senators from asking officials for an opinion on a matter of policy. I'm not asking Dr. King or any other official for an opinion on a matter of policy. I'm asking for the department's assessment about the likelihood of Palestinian elections occurring given that the Australian government's policy is predicated on elections being held.
>> I think that is the definition of a question about opinion. You you are saying uh what do you think will what what do you think will you can't ask
>> minister you know the purpose of the standing orders it is to prevent the officials being put in a difficult position to express a view about the desiraability of government policy because they're apolitical. I'm not asking Dr. King or anyone else to say is the government's policy good or bad. I'm asking Dr. King or anyone else who's got the expertise and can assist me how likely it is that the Palestinian Authority is going to hold elections given they've delayed them so many
>> Um I've answered the question
>> and what's you haven't actually what
>> I've responded.
>> What's your assessment then minister if you won't let the officials answer? What's your assessment? How many times more [snorts] will President Abbas be allowed to delay elections before we recognize that maybe he does not intend on
>> I'd respond to you by saying, you know, that's like asking you when will Israel stop building settlements that prevent a Palestinian state. I mean, like it's not
the government. It's not my policy.
>> No, I'm not I'm not trying to make a you misunderstand. I'm not that wasn't actually a a partisan point. We're not in control of what happens in the Middle East. All we can do is establish principal policy parameters that we that Australia operates within and that Australia seeks to make a contribution. And I've explained to you how that is. Now um I've put a view about the elections that is a view shared by the the um ministers with whom I made that statement which I think was Canada, UK, France as well. So you know we have put that view um you're asking uh Australian officials as I remind you um you know with with limited representation uh on in in country uh to make an assessment about something that so many countries are seeking have happen >> and I just I don't think that's a fair question for Dr. King. I've responded in the way I think is appropriate. You can make a political comment about that, but
>> I I don't need to make a political comment. I'll ask a final question. The chair wants to rotate the call. >> Your government's policy is predicated of Palestinian statethood recognition is predicated on the delivery of these key issues including elections. So my question to you minister on government policy is if the Palestinian authority continues to delay elections and doesn't deliver on its commitment to the Australian government and the international community are there any circumstances under which the government will revoke the recognition of Palestinian statethood?
>> No, we have recognized the state of Palestine.
>> Well, it's not a precondition then, is
>> Well, we have recognized the state of Palestine and that is a contribution to peace in the Middle East because there is no there is no peace. So they don't have to adhere to finish there is no peace uh without uh two states. What I have done uh is uh done where we where we are able and we're not the central player here. We're not the key player but where we are able to make a contribution to that reform. We are doing so and I've made clear a number of the steps uh on recognition. um in relation to recognition uh we uh uh are linked uh to the delivery of or the observance of the delivery of that those commitments.
>> But you've just said that it doesn't matter whether they deliver on these or not. We will not change our policy. We'll continue to recognize Palestinian statehood even if they don't deliver on these preconditions. Minister,
>> Senator, the the minister, as minister said, we've recognized the state of Palestine. What we made clear at the time was that further steps including the establishment of diplomatic relations and the opening of embassies would be considered as the Palestinian Authority makes progress on its commitments to reform. So the recognition has happened but further steps are contingent on these.
>> Thank you. So um Minister, why would the Palestinian Authority feel any need to deliver on these commitments given that you won't change your policy? You will allow them to flout these and not change your policy.
>> That is that is they are your words. I disagree with them and and really that the Palestinian people want a state. >> That that is, you know, look, let's be clear. >> Oh my goodness. >> Well, let me finish, will you?
>> Minister, conclude and I'll have to move the call around.
The Palestinian people want a state uh and um you know uh we want to see uh those commitments delivered and we want and we want to see them delivered uh because we want to see progress towards two states which is also why we have taken the view we have about the actions of the Netanyahu government in the West Bank.
>> Okay, on that note um I'll hand the call over to Senator Hodgins May.
>> Thank you chair. Um, Minister, today we learned that two UN
>> Sorry, can we just
>> Oh, yeah. So, it's in relation to UN raptors on climate writing to the Australian government.
>> Climate.
>> Yes. But it's it's relating to DEFAT, too.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's fine. >> I just got to get the appropriate
officials up to the table, I think, is what the minister is trying to indicate.
>> Uh, Pacific or Thank you, Senator.
>> Thank you. Um, Minister, today we learned that two UN special raptors have formally put allegations to the Australian government about your coal and gas expansion, subsidies to fossil fuel companies, lobbying and influence from these companies and the consequences for young people. Um, this follows a formal complaint lodged by nine brave young Australians with the UN special reperator on climate and human rights. I've had the privilege of meeting with those nine uh with those young people today. Um Minister, are you able to share or the department when you first became aware of the UN special
>> Senator Wil Kervis, Ambassador for Climate Change. Um I'm not sure we are aware of that letter but this would be a lead uh as I understand it of the department of climate change environment
but the government has responded to this letter and it is um with the United Nations is that it's not something that
>> Senator Angela Robinson for assistant secretary of the um multilateral policy and human rights division. Um we are aware that we received that communication and uh it is with the department of climate change um to respond to that. Um we haven't seen um the letter today but this would be the responsibility of the department of climate change.
>> So that noting that that was signed by the ambassador and deputy permanent representative to the UN Miss Roert last week but you defat didn't have any involvement in
>> um senator. So our um embassy well our permanent mission in Geneva is often the conduit for these communications. Um they represent the entire Australian government. In this case it was a communication by that department but they certainly represent um all government agencies and transmit those communications to the UN
>> and um so the minister had no involvement in this letter or the um the the consideration behind it the input into into that letter. Not that I'm
aware of, but we can take that on not
>> and the department the department didn't have any involvement. The DEFAT department didn't have any involvement in that.
>> I mean, we we are my division is aware of the communications they come in. We often make sure the relevant agency is then aware of it and is actioning it. We can remind them of the due date, but you
didn't have any input,
>> but we're not responsible for the content
>> and no input into
>> I can double check that for you that we didn't have um but we we certainly are aware of communications as they come in and track them, but very often, in fact, mostly we're not the responsible agency for the content.
>> Okay. Well, I will note that the response, which I've read today, um doesn't actually address any of the UN's allegations. Uh it makes no commitment to stopping approving new coal and gas projects, ending fossil fuel subsidies, or preventing lobbyists from influencing climate policy. In fact, it doesn't even mention young people once um despite it being 11 pages long. Um has DEFAT assessed whether the government's continued approval of coal and gas are consistent with our human rights obligations?
>> Um not in my division, Senator. Um that is for for other areas of government
So your division meaning all of DEFAT or
>> I'm not sure if the ambassador for climate change has looked at that but certainly um the department of climate change would be responsible for things like these communications they might engage other departments as well
>> even though it is in relation to our global responsibilities. I suppose I'm I'm I know the minister's not at the the table. I [snorts] will >> Yeah. No, I can see you here. >> I I'm Do you stand behind the ambassador's response to the United Nation um that >> fails to explain Australia's continued
appreciate um you wanting to follow this up, but as the officials have said that we're not responsible for that, I actually haven't seen the response.
>> just sort of seems baffling that it's an issue of international significance. United Nations two raptors United Nations raptors um surely links very closely to our diplomatic relations.
>> I'm you know it it may well do um but um the UN system uh comprises many many different um elements and many different agencies. Uh so DEFAT is not the one that deals with every single UN issue. Um for example um you know the multilateral system includes World Health Organization and a lot of the lead on that is taken by health or um migration.
>> So there's no overarching responsibility.
>> No. So so we might we might we may not we um well Ms. Robinson can speak more to how her um the multilateral um division might uh be aware of things, but on this the you're asking me to respond to the content of a letter I haven't uh seen uh and that we didn't draft. Now um you know if I if there's anything further I could provide you with I'm happy to but I I I feel like I'm not going to wing it if that's okay.
>> Yes. Just so I'm just trying to understand so if the department did draft something that you thought was egregious for glo like global partners um ultimately does defat have the final say on what goes out from an ambassador. I'm just trying to understand for my own knowledge.
>> Um no not necessarily senator. So I mean the response will be led by that agency. They'll go through their own clearance processes. They can come to us of course for questions and advice on how we usually do this, but it will be that responsible agency um that will then finalize the communication and ask our mission in Geneva to transmit it to the
>> Do you think it's appropriate for Australia to be co-hosting the COP International Climate Conference when we have the UN special raper telling us that we are failing young people on climate? not one but two special and that perhaps that's for the
>> I think that's an opinion. So I'm going to save will although I'm sure he can answer you give a version. >> U Senator I I understand you know your party's position on this. You've been consistent on it. Um and I think I've responded to some of your questions. Um uh what I would say about the precop um you know we have for many years including when I was climate minister and Miss Adams was my um ambassador for climate change many years ago um we have always sought to try and elevate the Pacific's um um perspective uh and their issues in the conference of party process uh in Copenhagen for example the the element elements of the Copenan Accord. I I remember reddrafting with the Pacific. Um so this is a this is part of what I think Australian foreign policy should be. So I see that the Pacific the pre-op in the Pacific is very much in that in line with that um responsibility and partnership um that we have with the Pacific um you know as a member of the Pacific family that we want to try and work with them to do as they seek in international fora and that is what they wanted you know so we respected uh and backed their desire to have more leaders see uh um and more senior senior ministers see what their experience is, their lived experience is you know what was interesting for me is that at the in my bilat recently I think with the Nepalese um foreign minister he and he's from a country that has experienced such devastation but a very different country uh I think he was one that went to Tuvalu >> uh and so he said here I am from a mountain country and I saw what you know and I see climate change in this way uh but in Tuvalu I saw it saw it through their eyes as well. So that is very important. So you know you're entitled to your position on um um the resources sector. I understand you know we we understand that. I would make the point as Mr. Bourne has made that you know we have very ambitious targets both for
>> this isn't my position minister. This is the UN special raper's position that I'm putting to you and I would say that both of those leaders of those countries you've quoted. I think we can fairly confidently say believe Australia should be doing far more on the climate change front and not approving new coal and gas projects um in this country. So I'm not this isn't my feelings or my opinions, the Green's feelings or opinions. I am referring directly to the UN special repertoire's position that Australia is not doing anywhere near enough um to protect the future of young people by acting on the climate crisis and stopping new coal and gas approvals and ongoing subsidies to the tune of billions of dollars. Um, Minister, can I ask that you'll perhaps commit to a meeting with the special raptors given um that you've only learned about this today? That might be something that you would commit to hearing them out on this.
>> I would probably say that I'm not the responsible minister. That the appropriate minister for them to engage with would be Minister B.
>> I will pass that on to the young people. Um,
>> well, you know, Senator, please I
>> It's a global issue though.
>> And I met with the Pacific young people yesterday on these issues. So, please
I'm glad to hear that.
>> Yeah. Well, as I have for the last 5 years, Pacific Young Pacific leaders. Five years.
>> These are young First Nation leaders
>> and well and and well, Pacific. This is a group which includes young First Nations people. So, please don't don't suggest that I don't meet.
>> I didn't suggest that. I asked Can
I let the minister finish and then we'll have a last question.
>> Um I I understand this that that why you're putting this to me. Please don't suggest I don't I don't
>> I don't put words in my mouth because I
do >> okay
>> senators please
>> uh I meet with young people I meet with young Pacific people and I meet with young people on climate. I'm simply saying that in relation to the special reporter that the responsible cabinet minister is minister Bowen.
>> All right move question on this matter
on this topic. >> Yeah I've got another topic. Um it's similarly I think it's the same bench of
people. Well, if there's another topic, I'll have to come back to you. So, um, you've already got your block, so I'll need to come back to you after the break.
>> We perhaps have a 20-minut coalition
senators have a lot more senators than a green. So, it's Yeah, it's only fair. Um, >> so on I'm going to hand over to Senator Ding and then um um you have the call, Senator Ding.
>> Thank you, Chair.
>> We'll have to come back after the break, but I'm mindful also Senator Paterson needs to head off as well, too. There's just a few other things I'm trying to keep everyone happy at the moment. But Senator Darling,
>> I was just if Senator Hodgins May needed to go, I didn't mind finishing and doing Senator Darling after the break. >> If she only had
a certain um leaders press club today,
>> I know that and our morning tea is very brief, but I'm just trying to accommodate everyone at the moment.
>> Whatever you want. I'm just saying.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. >> I will make time for everyone. But anyway, Senator Ding, if you could just