Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 6:30:27 to 6:37:01
Review of a specific medical discharge case and broader ADF personnel support mechanisms and privacy protocols.
Topics: ADF, Workplace culture
Speakers: Mark Hammond, Malcolm Roberts, Raff Ciccone, Hon Murray Watt, Jacqui Lambie
>> Okay. Um, now actually I was I did promise to come to Senator Roberts briefly and then Senator Paterson. So Senator Roberts, I'll come to you.
>> Thank you, Chair, and thank you for appearing again today. Uh, Admiral Hammond, on the 10th of May, 2023, Petty Officer Armfield wrote to you seeking help as his 20-year Navy career ended through medical discharge. In that correspondence, he challenged your stay on board people first commitment in which you stated that as chief of Navy, you were responsible for the safety and well-being of Navy personnel. You subsequently met Armfield in October 2023. He then provided you with 301 excerpts from a meeting he had with defense medical and legal representatives and you acknowledged reading those excerpts. Admiral, having personally received and acknowledged this evidence, what action did you take to investigate the identified failures, protect Armfield's professional reputation and welfare, and pursue accountability?
>> Uh, Senator, good afternoon. Thank you for joining us. Um, I have uh met with Petty Officer Armfield. Um, we organized for him to be flown to CRA to meet with me when I was the chief of defense, beg pardon, chief of navy, in order to hear from him p firsthand his, uh, his concerns and his complaints. I referred those complaints to the inspector general of the Australian Defense Force for a full investigation uh, and monitored that throughout. Uh we also flew the Warrenoff to the Navy uh to his location uh interstate on a couple of occasions uh to meet with him and we ensured that there was a support system uh dedicated uh to to monitor and support him as he navigated that investigative process. Uh I met him again when we're at the Royal Commission in Defense and Veteran Suicide. Spoke to him again on the sidelines inquired about his well-being. uh and um I have not met with him again uh recently.
>> Thank you, Admiral Hammond. On the 13th of February, 2024, as mentioned earlier, John Armfield contacted you also to identify Colonel Matthew Freeman and challenging the accuracy of his accounts of the support provided to John As mentioned earlier, on the 3rd of March, 2024, you acknowledged receiving
just just for a moment um when when you name people that are subject to allegations, you you place their name in the public domain and you subject them to all sorts of um repercussions in social media uh and in their workplace and at home and and in society in general. Uh we have a process for investigating complaints that are raised by ADF members and that is we refer them to the inspector general of the Australian Defense Force. uh and that is to ensure that things are investigated at arms length from uh from the the service chiefs and the CDF and also to make sure that the rights and protections of um of respondents are appropriately uh dealt with until evidence has been um assessed. So if you if if you'll indulge me, I would request you don't name any ADF personnel who are subject to allegations which have not yet been proven.
>> Can we and I should just add though just we have had um cases in the past where we do need to treat carefully. We don't want to interfere with any ongoing investigation. Um and I think you know be strong advice from clarks over you know various governments that would back that in. And I think um Senator, I'd just urge you and anyone else for that matter. We even had cases yesterday in the foreign affairs portfolio even that relate to visa matters. It is better if we can try and have some of these conversations offline not not for anything other than to make sure there is procedural fairness and afford the person that you're probably wanting to to to help be helped rather than aired in a public
Yeah, Senator Roberts, if I can just reinforce that there was actually Senator Lambie identified earlier today some um issues, you know, complaints or allegations that she wished to raise and undertook to raise them privately with the chief of the defense force so that they can be properly investigated without airing them in a in a public hearing. I'd ask that you, you know, consider the way that Senator Lambie has approached this and think about perhaps doing it in the same way. Uh I noticed
the chair just said uh that we would be better to be ventilated elsewhere and you've just offered that same invitation. Is that okay with you, Admiral?
>> Senator, I I've been personally engaged in supporting Piosfield. Um I I acknowledge he hasn't necessarily um received the outcome that he that he might have expected, but it has been independently investigated. I'm happy to engage with you offline oneonone so I can understand what additional concerns
or complaints. Admiral, could I just seek maybe your indulgence whether you might be willing to talk to the senator uh at some point whilst we're here and maybe work at how you can the two officers can now have a senator >> any information might be able to be exchanged.
>> Absolutely. Can I and I would extend that invitation to all members of the committee. If you've got concerns about the well-being or support of an ADF member, we would all like to hear about it um and be given the opportunity to do something about it whilst respecting the um the rights and well-being of all personnel involved.
>> I'd be delighted to meet with you and and discuss this. Uh I don't think it'll be happening today because we'll be busy until 11:00. But uh would you your office get in touch with mine or
>> Thank thank you Senator. We we'll make arrangements through through the appro appro the appropriate mechanisms but you know where I live and I'm not going anywhere anytime soon.
>> Well, thank you very much. But we don't where you where you work.
>> Could I ask a very short question?
>> Sorry, Senator Roberts. I was just going to say just so you know too that the Navy's also worked with us on this same issue um for some significant time as well and they've been been very good from their end. And so I'm not sure whether you've been told that or had an update, but we also have spent significant time um on this one person and trying to help them. So I'm not sure um how much help we can possibly give.
>> All right. But look, and if there's any dramas, I'll just say Senator, if you're having any issues, Senator Roberts, feel free to also contact my office. I'm sure we can liaz with the admiral or you can directly, but if there's any dramas, feel free.
>> I appreciate the comments of everyone.
So I just want to make sure that people understand there is genuine uh um uh opportunities here to engage on this particular issue.
>> Yep. That's taken. Can I just ask a very short question?