Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 2:52:53 to 3:02:18
Inquiry into reports of US undercover agents testing security at Australian naval bases, with officials clarifying these are joint, collaborative security protocols.
Topics: National security, Pacific relations
Speakers: David Shoebridge, Mark Hammond, Meghan Quinn, Celia Perkins, Unknown Speaker, Hon Murray Watt, Raff Ciccone
>> All right. Um I might move on to another point which is about um um a disturbing series of events that seem to have happened at ADF bases. Um, we understand that the US Naval Criminal Investigative Service, the NCIS, sent undercover agents into Australian Defense Force bases, including HMAS Sterling in Western Australia and HMAS Cutable in Sydney. Um, was the ADF advised in advance that these US undercover agents would be infiltrating
thing before the officials answer? We do not accept the characterization that's been given in those reports, but the officials can provide you with more
detail. Well, so was the ADF or the department given advanced notice before the Naval Criminal In investigative Service um from the US deployed undercover agents um who then entered HMAS Sterling in Western Australia and
respond to that in the first instance. That report is wrong. It is factually incorrect. What does occur around the world where US naval assets visit foreign ports is a collaborative uh arrangement between NCIS, US um embassies and host defense organizations to um assess uh and agree security protocols for visiting um programs. And that has always been the case. We've been supporting those um those ship visit uh security protocols collaboratively with US authorities for
>> So how was this report incorrect? were US undercover agents from the National Criminal Investigative Service. Um, did they um, uh, enter HMAS Sterling andor HMAS Cutable to in quote test existing physical security measures? Did they enter either
of those bases? Senator uh CD Perkins, Deputy Secretary Security and Estate. Uh we're aware of the reporting uh in the Daily Telegraph that uh uh purports to um draw on whistleblower statements and statements from former serving members with no contemporary knowledge of the work that we do. I would reinforce um both the CDF's comments just now and the comments uh that the deputy prime minister has made to the media in reference to these claims. we don't accept the suggestion that any assessments happen without the knowledge of the Australian government. We have long-standing arrangements uh including treaty level security uh and information sharing arrangements uh that guide the routine work that we do with many partners including NCIS uh and you know the security enforce protection procedures that we share and are developing together particularly in support of the ORCUS program um are robust and regular uh and we reject any suggestion that activities are undertaken without the knowledge uh of the Australian government.
>> Well, you you you spoke about transparency, Admiral Hammond. Do you remember just barely 5 minutes ago? Do >> Yeah. So, I'm now asking for you to live up to that commitment. Um, there's reporting here that the US deployed undercover agents to key Australian Defense Force bases, including HMA Sterling in Western Australia and HMAS Cutival in Sydney. I get a generic response that that's not correct. How is
article, Senator, is that was it was done without the concurrence and knowledge of Australian authorities.
>> So So you're not contesting that the undercover agents went into HMA as Sterling and HMAS. You're not contesting that part of it,
>> Senator. The NCIS agents work with us and and I've had personal experience in my previous job in preparing an understanding of security arrangements for visiting uh US warships to Australia. that is a wellestablished practice. We do it in concert, we do it in partnership uh and not just defense, it's it's um whole of government uh activity. So that's the characterization that is accurate. The inference that this was done as some um undercover activity without the knowledge of the Australian authorities is just
national security basis, one of my pre my primary concerns is that even if it was with consent that we have foreign agents who are, and I'll quote from the article, reportedly able to move through restricted areas without being challenged and photograph areas subject to security controls. These are not US bases. These are Australian bases. that if you consented to foreign security officers infiltrating our bases, photographing security areas, that's not my testimony. And um that is not misrepresent. >> Extraordinary breach.
>> It would reflect much better on you if you did not misrepresent what Admiral Hammond has said.
>> I'm reading from the article
>> which he has already said is factually
>> Well, no. Well, well, the I understood the contest was you didn't have consent. That's how you contested the article that the I the inference that it came without consent was how was was what you were contesting in the article. We now know that in fact there were undercover US agents in HMAS still in HMS.
>> No, he has not. He said exactly the opposite. You need to stop misrepresenting what Amber Admiral
>> I'm happy to go back and read over the transcript. Admiral Hammond. Do you do you now say that that's not true? I have
said consistently the report is factually incorrect and any inference that there was an infiltration by foreign US agents of Australian bases is factually incorrect and I've stated that we work in partnership with US authorities to to so they can understand the security apparatus in place for
evidence that there are no undercover that there have never been to your to to the extent of your knowledge undercover agents from the US Naval Criminal Intelligence Service um entering into in a covert way HMAS Sterling in WA or HMAS Cable in Sydney. Is that your evidence?
So Senator, the evidence is that the Australian government has various arrangements with security partners. Uh all work is done with full knowledge and concurrence and it in relation to the type of activity you've just referred to, it is done jointly with Australian
were US agents undercover inside Australian defense bases moving through restricted areas without being challenged and photographing areas subject to security controls? Did that happen?
>> Joint with Australians doing joint
Are you saying that at each point the undercover US agents were walking together with Australian personnel? Is that your evidence?
>> So, Senator, the act the activities are undertaken jointly between Australia and US officials. The exercise that you're talking about was a joint activity done with full knowledge and concurrence of Australian activity. In terms of the specifics of particular buildings and locations, I can't go to that level of detail, but I can assure the Australian public that we take our security seriously. We do have detailed arrangements and oversight with our security partners through a whole layer of treaty obligations, memorandum of opport of of of understanding. We undertake this work jointly with other partners within the Australian system, including our AIO and AFP partners. We I can assure the Australian public that we protect Australian bases. That is a core sovereignty requirement and something that we work very closely with our partners to make sure that occurs. The the characterization that was was done out of line of sight or done independently. We completely reject. It was always joint and it was full
occasions since the signing of the Orcus Agreement have undercover um agents from the Naval Criminal Investigative Service of the United States entered into Australian bases?
>> So happy to take that detail on notice. I just note that it would have occurred prior to the Orcus agreement as well.
>> By all means, give me the last 10 years >> By all means, give me the last 10 years. I'm more than happy to extend the um the the the request for data for for 10 years, but I'm I'm separating them. My first request is on how many occasions since the signing of AUS and then by all means if you think it's useful, you can give any data before that, Miss Quinn.
>> Happy to take it on notice.
>> All right. All right. Thanks, Senator Schub. Now, I'm going to come back to Senator Paterson.