Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, , 6:23:01 to 6:45:34
Discussion on the diplomatic visit of President Herzog and the termination of the Department of Employment Secretary under the Public Service Act.
Topics: Israel, Public service staffing, Workplace relations
Speakers: Hon Penny Wong, Speaker 49, David Pocock, Andrew Walter, Fatima Payman, Blair Exell, Interjection, Karen Grogan, Peter Good, Speaker 51
>> Question for you Minister. Um, it is a fact that uh, President Isaac Herzog of Israel was found by a UN Commission of Inquiry to have incited genocide against the Palestinian people. It's also a fact that Israel has been found by the UN special commission of inquiry and numerous human rights organizations and genocide scholars to be committing a genocide. And yet, the PM is welcoming the president of Israel. Minister, how much has it cost the Australian public to host Isaac Herzog, including security, shopping, travel, accommodation, and other public resources? And what departmental resources have been allocated to
I think the first point I'd make Senator and I do as I've said publicly understand that um people have there are very many different views and strongly held views about President Herzog's Uh I want to emphasize that uh the visit the purp the visit is to honor and remember the victims uh of the Bondi anti-semitic terrorist attack which is the worst terrorist attack on our soil and explicitly anti-semitic uh and to support members of the Jewish community uh invited on the recommendation of the prime minister by the governor general you know, people have a right to express their views. Uh, we're a democracy. Uh, but I would ask that people recognize the the solemn nature of the engagement that President Herzog is um will have while here, particularly with the community at Bondo, which I think is you asked uh in terms of some of the assertions you made, they're probably matters for DEFAD on Thursday. Um, in terms of the questions you asked about costs, uh, I suspect we will need to take them on notice. Um, uh, and we will do so because obviously those costs have not been finalized.
>> Thank you. look forward to getting that on notice. Is President Herzog visiting
>> I think the deputy prime minister has made clear the president Herdzog is not addressing the parliament. I think the DPM made that clear yesterday. I would ask you, we are I mean there's obviously um heightened security environment. So we are um if I take some of these questions on notice, I would just ask you to understand that that is the reason for it.
>> So my question was will he um be visiting? You've said he won't be addressing. Will he be visiting?
>> And I'll take that on notice.
Uh, and what activities do you think
>> I'll take that on notice.
>> Okay. Will he be invited to the House of
>> I'll take that on notice.
>> I'm interested in whether he will be addressing the House of Representatives.
>> I've just told you he was not addressing
>> Parliament. Either House.
>> That that is that is um uh consistent with what the deputy prime minister said
yesterday. Minister, is it appropriate for Australian taxpayers to fund the visit of a head of state who the UN Commission of Inquiry has said is
Senator, I'd really refer you to my opening answer. President Hzog has been invited to visit our country after the worst terrorist attack on our soil um in which 15 Australians, innocent Australians died, an anti-semitic attack. Um he's coming here to honor and remember the victims of that attack and to support the Australian Jewish community.
I look forward to your answers on notice. Thank you. I turn to a a different issue. Um, and my question is probably best for you, Deputy Secretary. Um, I wanted to turn to the recent conclusion of Secretary Secretary James 5-year term as a Secretary of the Department of Employment uh, and Workplace Relations.
>> Sorry, Secretary. >> What was the last name? James.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Sorry, I just couldn't I didn't.
Okay. Minister Rishworth published a media release on 16th December 2025 stating that Secretary James will conclude her term with no further details around the circumstances. Not clear whether this was a resignation or a termination. As the PMNC secretary is responsible for advising the PM on secretary terminations. Can you confirm whether this was a voluntary resignation or a termination under section 59 of the Public Service Act?
>> Uh thank you, Senator. uh Miss James was terminated under section 59 of the public service act.
>> So according to former APS commissioner Andrew Podger, quote, "No reason for the termination has been revealed publicly even though the high court in the Barrett case found that a reason for termination must be provided." What are the reasons?
>> Yes. Uh so there's two um two questions really there and perhaps if I start with the second one which is about Barrett and Howard. Uh the decision in Barrett and Howard goes to procedural fairness and the reason needs to be provided to the individual who was terminated. So it's a procedural fairness case. Um and the requirements of Barrett and Howard were met in this Um as to the first point um we because of matters of personal privacy we don't speak publicly about the reasons for termination and that's why we've been
>> So it's just so I understand clearly you're saying for reasons of personal privacy you won't be providing any public explanation as to the reason
>> that that's our practice. What I can confirm though um because I think this is quite important is there's no question of misbehavior or misconduct on behalf of Miss James.
>> So it's my understanding that section 59 three of the public servant states that before recommending to the governor general the appointment of a secretary be terminated. The PM must have received a report about the proposed termination from the secretary of the prime minister's department. Um can you confirm that such a report has been provided to the prime minister? Yes, >> it has. Who initiated the termination and provided the reasons?
so the report is always prepared by the secretary of the department. Um typically these reports are done following consultations with relevant ministers and uh the prime minister. Um and typically and and they are required. It is a requirement that consultation occur with the public service commissioner uh which occurred in this instance and as I mentioned in accordance with Barrett and Howard uh the secretary is also the relevant secretary is also given the opportunity to to comment on the brief uh and that
>> Okay. Uh was there a difference you've you've clarified that the APS commissioner was consulted as required. Um, was there a difference of opinion between Miss James and the government regarding the unlawful operation of the targeted compliance framework?
>> Uh, Senator, I I can't answer that question. I don't know. You'd have to ask the relevant minister.
>> Ask who?
>> The relevant minister.
>> The Minister for Employment Was Relations. I will do that. Will Secretary James be receiving a payout similar to former DA uh DAFF uh Secretary Fenessy who received an almost $900,000 golden handshake after being terminated under section 59 of the public service act.
>> So under the uh terms and conditions determined by the remuneration tribunal, a secretary who is terminated under section 59 is entitled uh to compensation for loss of office. Um, and the way that is calculated is so in in this instance, Miss James had more than 12 months to serve on her 5-year initial term of appointment. The way it's calculated is 12 months uh for for that length, it's calculated as 12 months what's called reference salary, which is total remuneration minus comma contribution. Uh, off the top of my head, her salary was $932,120 from memory. Uh, so it's it's that amount minus whatever her comalth whatever the Commonwealth super contribution was. I don't know that figure, but you can ask that from the Department of Employment and Workplace Relations.
>> I will do that.
>> We will need to rotate the
>> Thank you. I just clarify um Miss James worked for four years in the department. Is that correct?
>> Uh she was appointed on the 11th of July 2022. So three and a half
>> three and a half years and she got almost a million dollars in payment as she left.
>> She there the conditions determination determined by the remuneration tribunal. Yes.
>> Thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. Good afternoon. Um, in November, Tasmanian student Flossy Broad was invited to CRA to share her research on the negative effects of social media ban with the prime minister. I was just my line of questionings around that visit.
>> Just if you could just >> I'm hoping someone will come to the table. Senator P, just give us a Thank
Thank you. Um I'm curious to understand uh was any of the the expense of that trip covered by the government? Um if so, can you please break um provide a breakdown of the costs?
>> Thanks, Senator. Uh Narella Kitty, acting deputy secretary. Uh I'm not aware that uh the government covered the cost. I'll just confirm with my colleague. No, government did not cover
>> Okay. Um, so as far as you you know, taxpayers were not charged for this.
>> So, I'll take it on notice, but as far as I know, the government didn't uh cover the cost.
>> Okay. This question was already taken on notice. It was taken on notice during uh the hearings last year. Um, and if you want to know which question, it was question 1561 of the supplementary budget estimates. And I'm just wondering um why did your response to that question sort of you took it on notice but now you're saying that there was no costs associated.
>> Sorry. So I'm just going to did the prime minister department take the question notice or was it the line department who took notice?
>> It was the prime minister and cabinet.
>> Sorry. We'll follow that up. Was it a quan for a chamber quan or a
>> No, it was during supplementary budget
>> We'll check that for you, Senator.
so um having having not just the Tasmanian student but a few others um were I'm curious to understand what necessitated receiving the research in person rather than electronically given the ban was already legislated.
>> Senator, I'll have to take it on notice as well.
has the prime minister received any in-person representations uh in a manner similar to Flossy Broad from Australians aged 16 or younger regarding the limited effectiveness of the social media ban
>> Senator Peter Good, Assistant Secretary, Industry, Innovation, Science, Communications Branch. Um, Senator, I'm not aware off the top of my head of any other individuals um who might have um engaged with the prime minister on on this. I'd need to take that on notice.
>> Thank you. Um, the Camber Times reported last year that one of the issues driving the ban was that young people don't have the capacity to to discern what is real and what is not before the age of 16. Uh, Mr. the prime minister, Mr. Albanese said this was said in reference to the social media ban. Are you able to give us an inclination or indication of what that means?
>> So Senator, one of the um purposes of the ban is to provide young people greater time to build um skills around online engagements um and greater life skills as well to be able to engage u more maturely um on those platforms. Certainly the government in designing the ban um engaged extensively with a range of experts um including youth experts um uh educators and a a whole range of different stakeholders in designing this ban.
>> Are you able to tell us what research informed that particular statement >> because a few well not just a few many young people are offended that they're not able to discern what is real and what is not real by the age of 16. So I'm curious to understand what research informed that statement.
>> Senator, I'd need to take that on notice. I'm mindful as well that's the communications department has carriage of of the policy. Um so it may also be a question um better directed to to the communications department who are appearing tomorrow.
>> No worries. I look forward to uh receiving the answers on notice taken the second time. Thank you. Thanks,
>> Minister, there's obviously been a lot of discussion about President Ozok's visit and I understand and appreciate that his visit will be of comfort to um some in the Jewish community and it comes off the back of as as you said this terrorist attack uh that targeted the Jewish community. one Israeli national was um killed in the attack, but also acknowledge the deep distress that many Australians are feeling that their government has invited such a divisive uh figure to our country at a time where we are facing a lot of division and we've heard politicians talk about the need to bring the temperature down and so I was keen to ask you very respectfully what consultation actually took place before this invitation was extended um to President Herszog? Was there expert advice sought? Um how how does this process sort of happen?
>> Well, first can I I just um make a couple of comments. I I'd really refer you back and to my answer to Senator the other Senator PCO, Barbara PCO, um about the reason for the visit in the context of the visit and acknowledging and I appreciate that you have I think asked this question in a respectful way because I think um part of taking the temperature down is as we've discussed where you have uh differences of use is also how we deal with differences is relevant here to how we deal with differences of views uh on this visit. Um uh I can say to you and I'll see what I can provide on notice that that this certainly was something that um uh was raised um uh by members of the Jewish community and I think you would have seen um public statements to that effect. um uh in fact that um uh you know confirming that
>> and I I totally understand that I've met with um parts of the Jewish community here who who are thankful for the invitation keen to see him visit. But the the backdrop of all the talk about social cohesion, a president who has some very damning findings against him by international bodies, someone who has signed bombs. Um who did the prime minister consult with uh before extending this consult this um
well again in relation to some of those matters that you assert that probably matters for def. but I'll take on notice what we can provide you in terms of consultation. I mean this is obviously a period where there was a lot of engagement with a community that was that is and certainly
we're seeing a lot of concern about the visit, we're seeing a crackdown on protests in states like New South Wales, uh what steps are being taken by the federal government to try and quell some
>> well, I think we all
>> tension at at a time where, you know, I think people have very legitimate
>> I respect that people have strong views about this. Uh but I think all of us in positions of leadership including members and senators have a role in terms of how we um deal with those differences of views in our communities.
>> Thank you. I I have also have some questions about the uh desecrated war graves in um
>> probably not for this department. Um
>> I was interested what the prime minister's um response um and whether or not he'll be raising this with the president asking if Israel will um pay for the the works that are needed to actually restore the war graves.
the graves of fallen Australians are sacred to us. uh and um we we would always make clear the priority we assoc we we attach to the resting place of Australians
>> has the prime minister
>> but I will I will take on notice um the remainder of your question
>> minister just a last question and I hope hope you don't mind if I I just read a very very short excerpt from an email Cam Baron. Um, dear Senator, I'm the daughter of an Australian World War II soldier buried in the Gaza War Cemetery. I've just read the article in yesterday's Guardian where many of the Australian graves have apparently been bulldozed by the Israeli Defense Forces. My family is distressed and angry as we were led to believe by the War Graves Commission that very few Australian people's graves have been affected. I'm also distressed that the Australian government has very lately invited the president um of Israel to Australia when our soldiers graves have been desecrated by the Israeli Defense Force. I'm wondering what action the Australian government has taken over this bulldozing of graves and what action they intend to take, Mr. What should I say to this constituent?
I I suspect that the appropriate estimates would be grabs commission veterans affairs I >> I think I I'm just trying to remember where the commission is. I think it's in veterans >> so I'm sure that um or DEFAT we can give you an update on on that.
>> Surely something like this I mean a lot of Australians find it outrageous. Surely the prime minister has some sort of role to actually
to ask this here. Um you know uh and I will take on notice what you know because I can't tell you what the prime minister has raised um because obviously the visit has not uh yet occurred. Uh but I'm not trying to be difficult but you have been around long enough now to know that governments work by certain areas being administered by different portfolios and as much as you might want to make a political attack on the prime minister the the the appropriate body that you referenced is not in this portfolio. So, I'm simply asking you to ask the question in the appropriate portfolio.
>> Sure. I mean,
>> and just to assist you, Senator PCO, um, in Veterans Affairs, there is the Office of Australian War Graves. >> That's it. I have no doubt that they will have turned their minds to this and you'll probably get a more wholesome >> approach because it's their business and it's it's it's um it's an issue that they would they would be [snorts]
>> just just finally Minister Wong, I'm not sure it's a political attack to ask whether the prime minister is going to raise what I think is a very serious issue
>> and I've taken that on notice, Senator, because I can't preemp I can't tell you ahead of time what will or won't be raised.
>> Okay. You have you don't plan out what you're going to ask
>> Senator I don't >> a president. Well, we certainly don't do it through Senate estimates.