Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, , 56:23 to 1:30:58
The Indigenous Land and Sea Corporation (ILSC) details the divestment of Voyages assets and its 30-year history of supporting traditional owners.
Topics: First Nations, Land management, Tourism, Infrastructure
Speakers: Trevor Edmond, Matt Sammon, Richard Dowling, Kerrynne Liddle, Karen Grogan, Ellie Whiteaker, Interjection, Senator Kerrynne Liddle
welcome Mr. Morrison, group chief executive of the Indigenous Land and Sea Corporation and uh your colleagues. Uh would you care to make an opening statement?
>> I don't have an opening statement.
>> Okay.
>> Thank you.
>> Um look, I might just ask a quick one of your um stated purposes is is to support traditional owners in terms of owning their own land um and managing their own land. Um, how does that relate to the agreement you've got to sell Voyages Indigenous Tourism Australia?
>> Thanks for that question. I'll hand to Trevor Edund who's leading that project. Thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> Uh, thank you, Senator. Trevor Edmund, uh, project lead of the ARA uh, transition. Um in relation to the sale of the operating asset at assets at both Ezrock Resort and at Mossman Gorge um we have ensured and we've been at pains to ensure that um biders throughout the process and journey beyond as the final bidder and now the contracting party have fully understood that um land is not included in the acquisition. they will have a leaseold interest over that land uh at both Yelara um and at Mossman Gorge. Uh they will pay a premium rental premium for that occupation. Um and that land will eventually be divested in the case of Yilara to an indigenous corporation um that benefits Ananu that has been stood up. Um and in the case of Mossman Gorge, we're still working with community at Mossman Gorge to identify and then work with an appropriate um indigenous corporate entity that will be the owner of that land. Um and then they will be receiving the rental stream income from um Journey Beyond as well as other benefits that will flow as part of the negotiated arrangement. But land has been expressly excluded so that it can be divested.
>> Okay. So, it it's it's a leasing scenario.
>> It is a leasing scenario on both properties.
>> Okay. And how long is that lease intended to last if you're I appreciate you're not there yet. So, if there are
things >> we are very close. >> We're very very close. Um uh the lease in the case of the Yara property is a 90-year lease, albeit over three terms. Um and that's for a number of reasons over that time period. But that lease also requires Journey Beyond and Voyages as Voyages will be the tenant under Journey Beyond stewardship to um undertake all capital works and improvements on that land. So even land and buildings that are owned by and that will be owned by the Anunn community, the obligation to undertake capital works and to any other building work sits with Voyages and Journey Beyond. Um it's what's called a triple net lease. So all of the obligations for insurance, etc. sit with the tenant. Uh in the case of Mossman Gorge, um it is a 20-year lease, 2* 10. Uh but the circumstances at Mossman are slightly different uh in that journey beyond have committed and in fact we were at Mossman Gorge last week meeting with uh members of the Mossman community to talk about one of the benefits which is the transition of that business operations um probably during the first 10 years stewardship of Journey Beyond. So the intent is that Journey Beyond and Voyages will work with uh the Mossman Gorge community uh to assist them to develop management and other skills to eventually transition that business ownership as well as in due course are divesting the land to the community.
>> Okay. So so two quite different scenarios between the two locations. >> Indeed. Is is there a sense um of the um Yilara piece also going down that pathway or not at this stage? No, but
what has been agreed again as part of the final negotiations is that there are parcels within the Yara block as we call it, that large piece of land in central Australia um that will be excluded from the leasing arrangement uh and be dedicated for uh the Anu Corporation to firstly undertake um effectively a head office. So they will have um a building on this site which they will use as their head office but they will also use to assist with uh any young Anunnu who may want to be involved in training activities outside of NIA. Um there is also an area that has been set aside uh for cultural activities including future cultural tourism activities uh with the intent being that uh as part of the arrangement uh journey beyond are providing funds to assist in both the building uh on both of those sites and in the development of those tourism activities in the future. So the intent will be at Yilara there will be um a dedicated site for uh the corporation um and there will be a site where the corporation or other members of Anu Ananu can actually establish cultural tourism activities um for them to own operate and receive the benefit from.
>> Okay.
>> Question if that's okay. Yeah. >> Um, are you still expecting the sale price to clear any outstanding debt?
>> Uh, yes we are, Senator.
>> Just want [clears throat and snorts] to ask when you mentioned about the infrastructure as part of the negotiations, you're not given the um aging buildings that are out there. Um, I'm just trying to distinguish between what you mean by infrastructure, whether you're actually talking about the roads, the sewage, the electricity, or you're talking about the building as well. The
buildings that we own, Senator, the roads are interesting. There are some roads which form part of the land which are owned by Voyages and will remain to be owned by Voyagers and under the lease voyages will continue to maintain those roads. There are also public roads out there which of course sit with the Northern Territory government. Um and one of the many arrangements that we are dealing with at the moment is transitioning to make sure that those obligations remain with the anti-government and voyages. Uh in relation to other infrastructure uh water there is an arrangement uh sorry an agreement at the moment u which was entered into a number of years ago with power and water corporation in the territory uh to uh increase the water capacity. uh that agreement is also being transitioned so that um voyages as tenant rather than voyages as land owner is the other party. There are some minor matters there where for example there is an easement that needs to be granted which we are hoping will be done whilst we own the property as we transition to the corporation but sorry infrastructure I did mean buildings the buildings that are owned on the land by voyages at the moment are those that need to be maintained by voyages as tenant going
forward. So that's where I'm going to I'm I have been following this for some time. So there are actually three parties to this sale. You you actually don't divest responsibility for this asset entire for for this asset entirely. You still have an ongoing obligation to infrastructure associated with this project as well as the traditional owners as well as >> the the buyer.
>> The under the terms of the lease that will be entered into at completion. So Voyage as part of the transaction the land and buildings are being transferred out of Voyages to park in the ILSC as we transition the corporation to ownership. Um the lease that will be entered into at completion places obligations upon voyages with journey beyond guaranteeing it to maintain all buildings to undertake all capital works on buildings whether they be existing or buildings that they may wish to put up during the course of the lease. They also have the obligation to maintain insurance uh both um for any works that they undertake and the buildings and structures that are on that land from day from the time of the lease.
>> So you're not actually removed from all obligations when this sale occurs. Then
>> we will take on the role of land owner for an interim period whilst we work and transition with the community corporation with the intent that um by the end of this calendar year that land will be divested
>> and you will have no ongoing obligation.
>> We will have no ongoing obligations as a land owner. No doubt we will work with community as any other community if they seek to make grants or applications but we will have no ongoing obligations after that.
>> Right. Okay. I'm just trying to make understand where the obligation sits going forward. Okay. Um and the Mosbam when are you expecting divestment to take place for that?
the Mossom Gorge divestment is being handled outside of the project. The understanding is that that area whilst the g the land itself is freehold um there is a native title application in relation to the area which that the Mossman Gorge Cultural Center sits within um and under ILS policy our position is to negotiate with um native title determinants. So our position at the moment on the devestment of the land is that we are awaiting the finalization of that court case. Um I think we understand it should be resolved either this year or next. >> that's the anticipated timeline and once that is done and the PBC has stood up, we will then enter into discussions with the PBC.
>> All right, I'll come back to a question of voyages after. I just want to go to um the issue of property uh divestment and then return of those properties to ILSC. Currently you have two properties in prospect of return um this year alone. Can you tell me what sort of specific governance um and financial failures occurred in those recipient corporations that necessitated the return of those assets to the ILC?
>> Could you specify which properties
is it
sort of circumstances that might require that. So, uh, sorry, Matt Sammon, chief operating officer at the ILSC. Um, as senators will be aware, we retain a caveatable interest over land which we participate in at the acquisition of. And in the event where a title holding body might become insolvent or experience significant governance issues, um, we act as, I guess you'd say, a backs stop for the return of that property so it's not lost from the broader estate. Mhm. >> So typically it's it it would either be a significant governance failure or a financial matter for example failure to pay rates or a corporation becomes insolvent. So that's typically the sort of circumstance under which we would seek the return of a property or we might be approached to take it on in those circumstances.
>> Okay. I'm wanting you to take me through the tension between the acceleration of your devestment program.
>> Yes.
um and the KPIs that actually fuel that and the readiness of traditional owners to actually um manage the assets.
>> Yeah.
>> And retain those assets.
>> Uh so I would use this year as an example where we have uh a portfolio budget statement target of 10 investments. Um and that would be made up of a mix of assets which we acquire and divest in a single transaction and we have an extensive due diligence process around that. Um there have been three of those potentially five this year. So that that makes up the first part of an annual devestment sort of portfolio where we consider economic [clears throat] capability, social benefit, the governance arrangements of a corporation uh and a bunch of other things. Um and then we have uh I guess it'd be fair to say a backlog of land holdings which have inherited historically. There are about 42 of those and the balance of the investments for this year would be made up of us devesting those. Uh and we particularly target devestments where that capability uh exists where we've done a due diligence process and assess the ability of people to hold that property and we don't devest until that threshold is met. Right. >> Um so I wouldn't say there's there's a tension, but we would we definitely prioritize capability [clears throat] over meeting the KPI.
>> Okay. I noticed that um you've got 11 million of your consultant budget is dedicated to postvestment support. Um what what percentage of that is actually about ensuring recipients don't fail once the IL is moves to
>> I I would want to take that on notice and to give you the exact amount.
>> Okay. Okay, Senator, I would say that the majority of that expenditure in the last financial year was due to the Yara project though,
>> right? Okay. Thank you. Um, just a general question. Um, ILC and international travel. Has there been any international travel in the last 12 months of any of the executive or staff or board members?
>> Uh, no executive and uh, no board, but there has been uh, very minor support for a staff member to attend a meeting.
>> Okay. Can you provide details of that please?
>> Uh on notice
>> where they went. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, you would too. Um just want to ask this question. I I note that Thank you. you provided a list um in response to a question previously. Um there's four property I just noticed in looking at this list that a lot of those properties um appear to be from Queensland. Are there specific issues um in Queensland that mean that the list of reacquired properties seems to be greater from Queensland? There is some sensitivities in Yeah. >> Queensland that have actually contributed to that.
>> Yeah, sure. So, in Queensland, we have a disproportionately large number of held properties and that's because we inherited quite a large part of the previous ATS portfolio >> and that was particularly focused in Queensland. So, it's it's a it's more an historical inheritance than an operational issue, I would say, Senator.
>> Right. Okay. And I noticed you've got four at the bottom that are are referenced as reacquired and sold. Does that mean that they've been lost to the indigenous estate?
>> Well, yes, it does, but uh it's worth noting that we only ever sell property uh in close consultation with and generally with the consent of traditional owners. and it's usually in a circumstance where it's at a pro it's a property that's no longer fit for purpose. Uh one that comes to mind is a training center. Um we spoke with traditional owners. It wasn't being used for that purpose. We sold it and were able to reinvest that money in a more appropriate acquisition in line with our aspirations generally.
>> Right. Okay. So it's not that these properties that would make up the four in this list would be sold and not acquiring a similar property. So they're not lost to the indigenous.
>> Correct. It's just it's just a rebalancing.
that might be all my questions. Thank you. That that is all my questions.
Appreciate that. Thank you. Cool. Um, I know Senator Dowling's got some questions as well, but just to go back to the Voyages uh piece, the way that you're making this transition, can you talk us through the kind of consultation you've had um with the traditional owners there and and and how that's going to actually deliver on their aspirations?
>> Thank you, Senator. Again, if I could break that down between the two properties to make life a little bit easier for me to explain it. Um, in the case of the Yara block, um, we commenced consultation with community in July 2022, well before we made any announcement of the review, let alone sale in 2024. Um we have uh between July 2022 and April 2024 had 25 workshops over four rounds uh involving 290 unil participants. Um following that um and noting that in those meetings we had both translators and also anthropologists who assist to ensure um community representation was community representation. Um the community looked to establish an an agreed model for ownership of the Yara block property. um in October and November of 2024 following the announcement of our sale of the operational assets um as well as through a number of times through 2025 we had our biders meet with those community representatives who'd been nominated from the broader Um that helped identify community aspirations. It also allowed community to hear at that stage our biders aspirations. Um and then when we moved to an exclusive bidder position those meetings continued with journey beyond. Uh we also in late 24 early 25 uh engaged Terry Jenkee and company um who had been working with Ananu uh in relation to the Wiri Wiru Wuru project at um Yilara uh in relation to identifying rights but also now working with the committee that's been established to deal with the royalty payments that come Terry and her um team have [clears throat] assisted community, the annual community in working up a governance model for the corporation. Uh and has also been in attendance in meetings with bidders and ourselves. Uh we also engaged um another legal firm of property specialists to assist that group in negotiating the terms of the lease. Um in addition to the lease uh there is uh what's called a partnership or framework agreement that has been negotiated which has been entered into by that community corporation journey beyond and voyages to talk about how they will work on the future development of the arite um in particular how matters will be dealt with from a culturally sensitive perspective. There is also a framework agreement between those parties that deals specifically with those blocks that I mentioned previously. Um that consultation continues and will and as part of the arrangement there will be um effectively a committee meeting where representatives of community and representatives of voyages and journey beyond will be attending on a regular basis. My recollection is I think it's at least four times a year but any other time either party may wish to meet to progress those matters. So there has been some significant consultation with community uh and in those earlier consultations uh there were also meetings that we had with other community corporations in and around the Yelara block. Um but we were driven very much by the wishes of community that there be a standalone entity which was going to be the owner of this land in due course. In the case of uh Mossman Gorge uh again uh there have been a number of meetings that have been held with uh the bidders and then the exclusive bidder and now the contracting party with community uh including a meeting with the applicants for the native title claim. Uh in fact as I said before we were in Mossman Gorge meeting with those community representatives but last Wednesday to again talk about how that transition is going to look with the intent there that there will be a similar framework agreement in place that will be now negotiated with community uh at Mossman Gorge to deal with again those matters of cultural sensitivity in that site. uh further cultural tourism activities that can be worked up in partnership. Uh that group for example is very keen to ensure that all artwork uh is sourced appropriately um and from Eastern Cookie Allergy rather than more generally. Um they're also interested in for example naming conventions which Journey Beyond are quite happy to work with them on. um we see both sets of those partnership framework agreements remaining for the life of um Voyager's occupancy of that site. Um and again going back to Senator Little's position, we will also have some oversight position and responsibility to make sure that those two partnership arrangements are actually working for community as it goes forward. We're well aware of the disparate position between Journey Beyond and a community group. Um so we have constantly committed to both communities that as we say we're not here to cut and run. >> We're going to be here assisting them as they work through these matters with
>> Thank you very much. We'll go to Senator Ding.
>> Thanks Chair. Could I just touch on another aspect of the of the Voyages uh sale process and agreement? I know that uh Voyagers was running the national indigenous training academy and that had a significant role particularly in providing uh training in tourism and hospitality. Is there um an aspect I know that the journey beyond CEO made some positive comments that they were keen to continue the work with Nita but is there some more formalized arrangement that we can be have confidence that that academy and training programs will continue?
>> Uh thank you Senator. Um yes you can. Interestingly um I noted [clears throat] that talking about the success of Naider Onita um as at the end of last month there had been 783 graduates go through that program since its commencement. Um and there is a graduation happening at the end of this month which will bring that number very close to 800. Um there are currently 79 active trainees across the two sites. uh 63 in Yilara, 16 at Mossman Gorge. As part of the arrangement, there is a commitment from Voyagers to continue running Naida. Um it is of course dependent very much on government assistance. Uh and again, we've been very grateful as a journey beyond to the ongoing commitment we have from the government to continue providing funding. Uh the ILSC has also agreed to provide a level of funding for four years um to ensure that that program operates. But not only have journey beyond committed to continuing NIER, they are talking about expanding NIER to cover the other activities that they undertake. So, not just focusing on hospitality and tourism, but opening up for young First Nations people the ability to say um obtain marine licenses for the works they do on um in Darwin and now in the Wit Sundays and Port Douglas. Uh of course uh to deal with people who may want to become engineers or engine drivers for their works that they do. So, they are very positive about expanding not just maintaining but expanding where Naida is providing. But it is going to be very much fun uh dependent upon continuing funding as it goes forward.
>> Thank you. Um just a question uh more broadly on the um council's mandate. I know that you run some programs and grant programs. I'm particularly interested in the disaster recovery quick response grants. Uh has that have they been activated in the past if you can give some examples of where they take place and they're called quick response. So, how quick do they roll out and uh what type of people are eligible in what circumstances? >> Those response grants are always open in fact um and we do advertise those when there are natural disasters, but I'll turn to Matt for some specifics.
>> Yeah, thanks Senator. Uh so, as as CEOs indicated, uh those grants are always open. Uh we tend to publicize them when there's a declared disaster for a particular area. Those grants are up to $20,000. Uh the turnaround guaranteed turnaround time is 14 business days figures for take up this financial year. I'm happy to provide those on notice, but we've certainly seen I'm aware in the previous years I think the take up was about 15 of those opportunities were
>> And is that a sort of do you have a budget for that? It's I assume it's not uncapped but you've got plenty of capacity where where the demand is needed.
>> That's correct. Yeah. So we have a notion of bucket allocated um and we have an ability to expand that in the case of higher than anticipated demand if it was required.
>> And how do you make build awareness that that that is available because often you know people strike disaster and they don't know where to go immediately. How do they know that these grants are there?
>> Yeah. So I mean we obviously rely on the normal channels. We have a fairly active social media presence and other things but I rely on divisions to reach out to the particular regions. So our business is built on the relationships we have in those particular regions and so have a number of officers uh who speak directly with people we know in those networks um whenever that arises.
>> Great. Um maybe just a a final one from me. I know that the uh Indigenous Land and Sea Corporation is coming up on now 30 years u in operation. If you could maybe just reflect on some of the accomplishments over those 30 years and uh the lessons learned as well and and how you're going to use that in the future and particularly any highlights you might want to um advise the committee of through that those 30 >> That's a uh a very good question, Senator. Um we actually did just publish a um document uh uh celebrating the last 30 years. Um I think there are many achievements uh and many lessons in fact for the for the corporation over that time period and uh if we're talking about uh lessons in relation to the YARA investment obviously our biggest acquisition uh but it's also going to be our biggest um devestment um and uh you know that I think the the benefits to traditional owners and particularly in a place uh where um the traditional owners weren't able to achieve native title outcomes in relation to that land. So they're receiving it freehole. I think that's enormous outcome for that group. Uh there are many small projects around the country that uh bring um uh celebration to local groups ranging from the acquisition of uh licenses for southern bluefin tuna for example um pippies in South Australia um to other acquisitions um and investments. We're uh in the throws of also devesting quite large properties in the Kimbley uh in Western Australia as well, Karani and Durac stations which are quite historical large land holdings to traditional owner groups. Uh I think one of the achievements of the ILC really is that we were able to in in particularly in the last decade um listen to First Nations people and uh tailor our programs to support their aspirations uh and to be able to ensure that we're not just supporting them but we're amplifying indigenous voices as well. And that's certainly something that we focused on uh in our 30-year celebration was to uh conduct a a podcast series which was talking about the success uh and challenges that many indigenous groups around the country faced in relation to their uh self-determined journey. So there are many things and we're quite happy to um share those uh lessons and that document with senators here. >> Oh, that would be great. Yeah. The um so the podcast series, how many episodes is Uh, you got me there, I think.
get your podcast?
>> Uh, we can we can send them through the links through to the senators. >> Yeah. No, I was just interested if it captures those various stories from the ground. It' be sounds like an interesting listen. >> Yeah, there are. >> Yeah. Um, back to some of the um funding programs. We we talked about the quick response, but also be interested in the uh our country, our future uh which is I think your principal program. maybe um some you can touch on how that's operated over the past year. >> I'll turn to Matt again for that one.
>> Yeah, thanks Senator. So um our country, our future is our flagship funding program which concentrates primarily on two streams. One is the land acquisition stream and I mean by land I mean that in a very broad sense. Country is probably a better word because it includes water and saltwater license arrangements. um and we publish a sort of annual target for our aspiration for those kind of acquisitions. Typically, it's between five and 10 in a year. Um and we're on track to meet that target. The second part of our work is is called the management bucket and they're the kind of projects where people might own land already, be fortunate enough to own land already or we've previously invested in and are looking to derive increased benefit from that land. So that's everything from helping people build ranger bases to investing in clean energy projects in the Kimbley uh to a bunch of other arrangements. Um so we we publish an aspirational target for those activities. We've hit those year on year at least for the last four. Um but but importantly the things that we fund are informed by the national indigenous land and sea strategy which sets out pretty clearly what people told us they wanted the sea to be investing in for the next 5 years. We've got two years to run on that. So that is uh that's the sort of guiding principle uh which we use to make investment decisions and as I've said to the senator previously um there's a behind thescenes pretty detailed investigation of capability targets where we need to develop capacity for those investment decisions to be made.
>> Okay. I guess you call them investment decisions but they wouldn't have you know a typical ROI metric. How do you sort of say afterwards was that a good investment?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So uh you'll see in our annual report that we move to a sort of value for money uh framework for measuring the benefits of those things and we manage we measure efficiency, economy, equity and effectiveness. Uh so not your typical straight O ROI measure. Um and for example the efficiency measure is determined by the experience that people have in dealing with us. So it's not just us marking our own homework. Um uh so we agree with people what they think the benefits are going in and then year on year we'll measure those to see if they're being achieved.
>> Right. And and when you're helping people sort of you you touch that management bucket when you're helping people how do you sort of procure those management um if they need that that expertise or or help with managing how do you how do you go about procuring that?
>> Yeah. So, so uh we'll either we'll either guide them through an open market process of procurement or we we sometimes have a panel arrangement that we can refer people to. But importantly, we're generally steered by the need that the community identifies themselves in that kind of arrangement.
>> Okay. Thank you, chair. That's all.
>> Thank you. Um one last question, probably a bit niche. um at um at uh Yilara there currently um there's a like an art center uh clothing sort of store in there but that's in the center of of the of the complex will that stay
>> uh Senator Goker. Yes, the Gallery of Central Australia. Yes, that's >> it's brilliant. >> That is remaining. That's an asset that is very very proud of as part of their activity. >> Um I think it has to last date >> 13 community groups who they >> um go out to get artwork and sold on a commission basis. Um and it is very popular with people who are staying at ESRock Resort uh and in Yilara more generally. Uh I don't believe there is any intention that Journey Beyond have other than to probably expand it.
That is great to hear. Thank you very much. [laughter] Um, I'd like to thank you for coming along and spending some time with us this morning. Um, thank you Mr. Morrison, Mr. Sam, Mr. Edmund. Um, >> and thank you, Minister, uh, for your time over the last two days. We really appreciate all the work that you do, um, and your attendance here. Um we will now suspend for morning tea and come back at 10:50.