Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 1:52:34 to 2:12:52
The department provides details on the establishment of a new Fair Work Court and evaluates the effectiveness of the National Access to Justice Partnership in delivering legal assistance.
Topics: Law reform, Legal aid, Workplace relations
Speakers: Esther Bogaart, Senator Michaelia Cash, Alaina Mitchell, Katherine Jones, Chris Collett, Senator Helen Polley, Tara Inverarity
>> Secretary, I could probably pose this first question to you. Uh, it's in relation to what is now uh the final decision on the Gigglev Tickle case. Um, can you just explain in plain English what the decision means for biological
that's a a matter in in the human rights area, which is in the um integrity and security group.
>> Oh, so hold them over for integrity and security as well. >> Yeah, >> we're going to have a lot in integrity and security. Okay. Um, I will go to my next line of questioning then. Uh, the Fair Work Court consultation. >> Yes, Senator, you're in. Thank you. Uh, Secretary, on what date were you first informed that the government was considering establishing the new Fair
I think um obviously uh Senate Senator Cash over the years there's been ongoing discussion about the um possibility of establishing a a separate uh court with a a fair work jurisdiction. Uh so it's uh it's been something that's come up uh multiple times over recent years. Uh in terms of um aheadic this iteration, I would have to take on notice the first time uh I I it was ever sort of raised with me that the proposal was proceeding. Um but it was you know some period uh ahead of the announcement.
>> Okay. Um when were the chief justices of both the federal court and the federal circuit and family court uh advised of the final decision?
>> Um I'll ask uh Mr. Klette to talk to that.
>> The the I'll be clear the courts were both advised uh immediately prior to the government's announcement.
>> Uh when you say immediately prior, what does that mean?
>> So that day.
>> Oh that day. half an hour before, an hour before, 7 minutes before.
>> I don't know specifically um when on that certainly before, but I couldn't tell you.
>> Courts announced that day. Who was um who who who advised them? the courts. It was the AG's office.
>> Um and you >> Sorry if I may. Sorry, your your question to Mr. specifically referred to the chief justices and when they were told I just wanted to be precise that I myself and I don't think anyone here has knowledge of whether the attorney general's office spoke directly to the chief justices or whether they spoke to somebody else involved in the administration of
>> that's fine and perhaps on notice then uh you can take that but they were advised that day um or the courts were advised that day and if you could take on notice when um they were advised um did either chief justice provide feedback >> uh on the on the Fairwork Court prior to the announcement on the 23rd of July 2026.
>> The not sure how to the problem that question Senator is as the secretary said the concept of a Fairwork Court or an industrial relations court is a long-standing one within the industrial relations policy space. Um I'm speculating but I would imagine chief justices going back many years would have had different conversations about
>> what about these particular chief justices with all due respect seeing as they are the current chief justices and >> uh chief justice Olan has been the chief justice for some time now.
>> As far as I'm aware there was no formal uh correspondence that would amount to what you're describing. Uh I guess what we are unable to speak to is whether views might have been expressed.
>> Okay. Well well what role did the department have then in liazing with uh both courts?
>> Yeah. So certainly Senator following the announcement from the prime minister, Minister Rishworth and the attorney general uh we've worked very closely uh with both courts. Uh I'd note that the uh government has stood up a joint task force between our department and the department of employment and workplace relations given the crosscutting nature of this issue and the responsibility of both lead ministers. uh right from the get-go of of this work and noting the prime minister's comments around consultation um we've worked very closely with both courts and through our colleagues endure uh the fair work commission um and we've had a whole range of engagements from the principal registars uh down their corporate people uh and so on
>> can I just confirm that you said following the announcement and you meant following the announcement uh of the new court on the 23rd of July 2026 does one not normally consult prior to an announcement given that uh a new court is being established.
>> I I can't speak to what normal is in that establishing a chapter 3 court is a very unusual thing for government to do. So there are very few precedents here and as both the secretary and I have said earlier there have been lots of conversations over the years around this sort of concept and we've worked since the government's announcement about the intention to establish the court very closely with our colleagues in DUA and with the courts in the commission.
>> Can I just confirm then no one in the department advised either court in advance of the announcement that was the role of the attorney general's office?
>> Yes,
>> Okay. Um, is it possible to take on notice the consultation with both courts uh over the last 12 months in relation to what culminated in the announcement on the 23rd of July 2026?
>> I'm not sure we'll have a specific answer to that, Senator, based on my
>> Okay. So really what I'm looking at for is given that we have announced a new court which as you said is a significant Did you do any formal consultation with the courts on this particular
>> Um Senator I I can confirm that we did
>> You did not. Thank you. Thank you. That was my understanding. Thank you for putting it on the handsard record. Why did you not do any formal consultation with the two courts given they are the leading courts in Australia um that are
the announcement was a matter for government. Um once it was announced uh between we we established a task force between this department and the department of employment and workplace relations to oversee uh engagement with stakeholders. Uh this department uh in the in the context of the task force um took the lead on engaging with
>> this department. Sorry your y department. Yep.
>> Uh uh but um that followed the announcement and was the the work of the task force. Um we can give you dates around uh those engagements.
>> That would be greatly appreciated. And and can I just confirm then in relation to the announcement on the 23rd of July? When was this department formally advised given you are in charge of the courts that the announcement was being
I think we might need to take that on notice. Um uh but we we should be able to provide that on notice.
>> Was it prior to the announcement in terms of like the courts that day? Was it a week before to some certain Surely someone has that knowledge within their possession here today?
>> Yeah, we we certainly had been doing policy work beforehand and we were aware of the announcement beforehand, but we'd have to take on notice as the secretary
>> Okay. So since the announcement, have you received feedback at all of any nature from either of the courts?
>> Uh yes, Senator, we work very closely with the courts uh since the announcement through the joint task force um and have very much appreciated their support and technical expertise.
>> And I might also mention we did receive formal correspondence from Chief Justice Mortimer. I believe that was on the 8th of October.
>> The 8th of October. And what was the nature of that correspondence from Chief Justice Mortimer?
>> Uh it was providing uh um information to assist in the development of the court. I don't have the correspondence.
>> No, that's not a problem. Um has either chief justice or the courts raised any concerns in relation to the announcement on the 23rd of July 2026. for the establishment of the new court.
>> Um I think uh they have um sought to actively engage in the consultation to understand um uh the impact that the establishment of a new court might have in terms of their ex pre-existing jurisdiction. Um they've sought to raise uh very constructive practical issues uh that need to be taken into account uh to inform uh the the model for the court. Um because uh there there are a range of issues that go to jurisdiction. um uh the model to support the uh the court uh the scope of its um uh epillet um jurisdiction. So there's a range range of issues to be working through and they've engaged in those discussions.
>> Oh, okay. Thank you.
Chair, I just want to go to the National Access to Justice Partnership and the $3.9 billion the government has invested with some questions.
>> Thank you, Senator. Our relevant colleagues are coming up.
So my first question is how is the Commonwealth evaluating the effectiveness of the investment in legal assistance services to improving access for justice for for Australians?
>> Uh thank you Senator Esther Bogaart, First Assistant Secretary of the First Nations and Justice Division. how are we evaluating the effectiveness of the NAJP? Uh, so Senator, we have uh a number of uh ways that that we can do that. Um we are developing under the NAP uh or have developed a data strategy which has been endorsed by the standing council of attorneys general and we're now in the process of developing in consultation with the um uh the sector and the states and territories an outcomes framework uh which is also underpinned by a theory of change. Uh so we are developing that in a way it so that we can then have the data coming through the data strategy and then evaluate outcomes. Um the outcomes framework is not due to be finalized until uh the 30th of June 2027. So it's currently underway. Um in the meantime uh we do receive six monthly reporting. So we we are able to see early information more about service numbers um increasing or or otherwise uh and and have seen uh across the board in the first six months of reporting that there have been more clients assisted um in the six months since the NHP started than in the previous six months of the previous agreement. So we are we are looking at it in um multiple different ways but the full evaluation uh will come after we've finalized the outcomes
framework. Thank you. I thought it was useful to get an update. So, with the upcoming summer um and heightened risk of a natural disaster, how will the National Access um to justice partnership actually help those that may be impacted by a natural
So, Senator, under the NAJ, um we have sort of rolled all funding in to allow legal assistance providers to determine how they address any client uh or service that they provide. But people affected by natural disasters are a priority client under the National Access to Justice Partnership. Um there's also uh a process through um through NEMA which I'll ask Miss Mitchell to speak to where we have developed um offtheshelf resources so that legal assistance providers can access funding where there are natural disasters. But I'll hand over to Miss
Uh hi Senator Elena Bitell, excuse me, assistant secretary legal assistance branch. Thank you. Um, in addition to what Miss Barty said about uh people affected by natural disasters being identified as national priority client groups under the NAP, I would note that common post- disaster legal issues such as insurance and social security matters are also identified as Commonwealth service priorities under the NAP. thank you Uh the uh National Emergency Management Agency has a off-the-shelf legal assistance package and the department worked closely with NEMA in developing that package. Um that aims to streamline the activation process for post- disaster legal assistance um resources. Um and that was a recommendation of the Royal Commission International Disaster
>> Great. Now we hear a lot about emerging technologies and of course AI. Um how do you see um AI and other technologies assisting in the delivery of legal services to Australians and how is the department supporting the legal assistance sector to build capacity in
>> Thank you for the question. Um, we see that AI offers significant opportunities in the legal system, including a potential to improve the efficiency of legal service delivery, improve access to justice, improve access to legal information, and reduce administrative Uh, in July 2026, the standing council of attorneys general agreed to establish an officials level AI and access to justice working group. That working group is co-chared by the Commonwealth and by the Victorian Department of Justice and Community Safety and it includes representation from all states and territories and New Zealand. The initial scope of that working group will be to share information on AI adoption, identify common issues, um explore opportunities for collaboration and um to look at specific opportunities for AI adoption to enhance access to Uh the working group has now met for the first time. Uh we met on the 15th of October 2026 and considered a presentation on a AI scoping study that's been commissioned by the department and had an opportunity to discuss opportunities and challenges of AI adoption in the legal system.
>> And when's that due to meet again?
>> That will meet approximately February next year. Um and we will also be looking to establish an expert reference group uh to inform the consideration of that group also early 2027. So we should
be able to get an update of the next estimates. Thank you for that. I want to move on uh to some other questions relating to the national justice reinvestment program. Do we need different officials?
>> You have you have the right people.
>> Excellent. How are the 26 active initiatives funded under the justice reinvestment program supporting the delivery of closing the gap targets? Can you give us an update please?
>> Thank you Senator. Um the justice reinvestment program is aimed uh squarely at reducing incarceration rates which are the um targets 10 and 11 under the national agreement on closing the gap. Um the 26 initiatives have been in place for for varying uh periods of time but we are seeing some really early promising data and some strong progress um from from initiatives as they mature. Uh so some of the early outcomes uh reported by individual initiatives to date for example um one site reported estimated detention cost savings of at least $2.5 million over 12 months. Um one site reported crime rates dropped by between 87% to 95% since their justice reinvestment activities commenced. Um, another site reported 74% of young people participating in its program have not offended since commencement and that 91% of participants with an active court order were complying with those orders. Um, another one initiative has had 242 referrals in 12 months. Um, for example, one 14-year-old boy had 77 police custody interactions since he was 10 years old and since engaging with the program has not been arrested or apprehended since May 2025. So, we are seeing um real impacts. Um, these are community-led, place-based approaches where the local community determine what is needed uh to reduce those incarceration rates and contact with the justice system. Um, and whilst we uh won't evaluate the program formally for another couple of years to allow those programs to really take place and progress, um, we are seeing some really early signs of progress.
How's the department supporting the justice reinvestment initiatives to build capability for example through access to placebased data to support planning and decision making.
>> Thank you senator. So we have been working really closely with those particular um initiatives on access to data. So uh and monitoring or measurement and evaluation framework was co-designed with the initiatives uh over the course of most of last year and and some of this year and and that has now been finalized which allows us to uh to measure those outcomes but also to support communities have to have and access their own local place-based um data. Um we have partnered in the department with the Australian Bureau of Statistics Life course data initiative. um to provide initiatives with a range of locally tailored data products including data on economic security, housing, education, health and data regarding investment from our the attorney general's department portfolio as a starting point. That team in the ABS um has also delivered voluntary data literacy and capability building sessions for initiatives um to provide guidance on how to interpret and visualize data and improve accessibility for users. and we're continuing to work to provide Commonwealth data, but also to work with the states and territories to ensure that those initiatives can access state and territory data as well.