Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 2:12:52 to 2:35:47
Senators question the slow implementation of Royal Commission recommendations regarding Aboriginal deaths in custody and the deteriorating targets for First Nations youth justice.
Topics: First Nations, Closing the Gap, Youth justice
Speakers: Senator David Shoebridge, Katherine Jones, Esther Bogaart, Senator Lidia Thorpe, Senator Don Farrell, Chris Collett, Senator Jana Stewart
>> chair. Uh, thank you for appearing today. since the 1991 Royal Commission into ainal deaths in custody which this government has failed time and time again to implement those recommendations. We've done a Deoit's review in 2018 desktop review didn't talk to anyone. Someone just sat at the computer and said tick tick tick tick. what's the status? How many of the 339 recommendations that keep Aboriginal and toristra to straight islander people alive and well how many have been implemented of the
>> Thank you Senator. Um I do uh understand that the deote review uh was a desktop exercise and it was selfassessed. But what it did provide was an opportunity for government agencies deter to determine which recommendations they are responsible for um and provide a framework for us to be able to assess ourselves against those. Um so the Commonwealth in terms of the broader review um the in and determining who is responsible for which um the Commonwealth has sole responsibility for 29 and joint responsibility with the states and territories for a further 194. AGD this department is responsible for 23 of those. We do monitor them and we do um check the implementation of them regularly. Um the deote review while I understand has mixed mixed responses in terms of its um effectiveness did find that 17 were complete, five were mostly complete and one was partially complete. and Senator um our main uh priority as per the central finding of that recommendation is to reduce incarceration sorry that Royal Commission is to reduce incarceration rates of Aboriginal and tourist rate islander people and we do work um through a range of different mechanisms uh to work towards those reductions.
>> Well, clearly that's not working out for you. Clearly, we're the most incarcerated people on the planet. So again, I ask, how many have not have been implemented from from your department and why has it taken 35 years to implement the remainder?
Senator, if I can um note uh uh and we can provide um more detail on notice, but in relation to the recommendations that were directed to us, uh we have actioned to some degree, all of them. Some are complete, some um some will never be complete because they require ongoing uh uh attention and work. um uh but the vast majority uh either with the states and the territories with the states and the territories uh we continue to work through a range of mechanisms uh I completely accept what you're saying in terms of I accept what you're saying in ter in some jurisdictions uh the uh closing the gap uh 10 and 11 are going backwards there's been some modest improvement in one jurisdiction in Victoria but otherwise there has been um ongoing challenges uh and a deterioration in some jurisdictions.
So what recommendations is your department responsible for that have not been implemented.
>> Senator, I can provide on notice and we have provided on notice um in previous lines of questioning the ones that we are responsible for and which ones are complete, mostly complete and partially complete. There's there's 23 of them. I mean, I could go through them if you want me to, but it might make more sense to provide on notice.
>> So, there's 23 that haven't been
>> there's 23 that AG is responsible for.
>> So, how many of the 23 have been implemented from your department?
>> So, 17 are complete, five are mostly complete and one is partially complete.
>> Which one's partially complete? Senator,
it is the recommendation um that uh to provide recommendation 99 to provide an interpreter without cost where there is doubt to an Aboriginal defendant's ability to understand proceedings. Um while the government does um at the federal level and in federal courts um people do have access to um interpreters and also through our funding to ainal touristra island to legal services um they can also access and use their funding for interpreters um there we can't guarantee every single time interpreter to can be found or in place. So that one is um partially
complete. Yes, it's big problem. Um, thank you. I'll keep coming back to that until they carry me out in a box because it's it's outrageous that we have a royal commission in this country with 339 recommendations and 35 years later, we're still asking about them. And there are still too many ainal deaths in custody and there were still too many of our people incarcerated. So can I ask sen how many recommendations have been implemented from the 1997 bringing them home report?
>> Senator, the department of social services um is responsible for the um implementation of that report. So there
are no uh responsibilities for for your department
>> Senator. Uh no the they sit the oversight of that particular royal commission sits with the department of social services. So it's best to um ask them for um for the implementation status.
>> So they have oversight did you say? Um, on the 27th of May 25, the Senate agreed to my motion following the death of Kumman J. White for all parliamentarians to address the over incarceration and death deaths in custody of First Peoples. What action has the attorney general taken since then and what support has she had?
Um, Senator, we can um talk to a range of measures uh working uh through the standing committee of attorneys general, through the work on the justice policy partnership, uh through the justice reinvestment program uh and uh ongoing engagement uh across the Commonwealth government and and Miss Bogaart can take you through all those elements.
Uh so Senator um there are a range of things that the attorney general's department is doing as as Miss Jones just mentioned. Um we have invested uh or the government has invested $115 million uh in the national justice reinvestment program an additional 10 million over four years in the central
>> I'm happy to take that on notice because you're going to eat up my last two minutes. So, my apologies. If I if I could have that on notice, please.
>> You what would you like on notice, Senator?
>> What you were about to read out in terms of the supports, uh, the money. >> Yes. >> Which does not equate to less deaths in custody, by the way, but I'm happy to take that on notice.
>> Thank you. Senator Thorpe is trying to assist the the chair. I did indicate she's only got two minutes left, so >> thank you, Senator Thorpe, for that. Um,
since the Senate uh failed to pass my two bills to ban shackling during child birth and strip searching children who are being hurt by pedophiles in uniform. A number of cases have since been reported that continue to shackle ainal women and girls in hospitals. What steps is the government taking to meet the committee's recommendations and address the issues raised by the
>> Senator, um just acknowledging the harm and distress that such practices um cause.
>> You care. No one cares here.
>> We we do care. No, you don't. Um the is this particular issue of shackling um was uh raised in a review that the department of health um uh commissioned a couple of years ago now around health care in prisons. The Minister for Health is um is working with his state and territory counterparts and probably detailed questions should should go to the Department of Health, but is working with his counterparts on a range of issues that arose in that report including this particular matter um and working with those state and territory health ministers who are um responsible along with their corrections ministers for preventing and stopping these practices. So that the the commonwealth is um looking at this issue and working with the states and territories to ensure
>> so sorry how long were the conversations been going on? Couple years.
>> The report by now into healthcare and prisons uh was the end of 2024. Um and the health minister has been working quite closely with health health ministers in states and territories. But you would need to ask more detailed questions of the department of health. But those conversations,
>> so your your department's not got anything to do with it. It's handled to the Department of Health, is it?
>> It's not handled, Senator. It's um the department responsible for the policy issues. Um we don't we are not the department of health and we we do not have a corrections function either. So it is appropriate that the health minister is um leading this body of work.
>> Thank you, Senator Thorpe. Uh Senator Sullivan. Oh, sorry. No, no, I'm going to Senator She Sorry. Yes. No. Um, Senator She is on my list next.
>> Um, thanks chair. I I do find that an extraordinary avoidance of responsibility. The shackles, the handcuffs are not put on by health officials. In fact, it's my understanding that the shackling of women while they're giving birth is almost universally opposed by health officials, by the nurses, the doctors, anyone in that room. But the shackles, the handcuffs are put on by the uh casserole system, by police and prison officers. And it's your department that's responsible for coordinating this at a national level, not the health department. If you send it off to the health department, you will not answer it. Is your department leading a discussion amongst attorney generals across this country to prevent women being shackled to their beds by handcuffs while they're giving birth to their children? And if not, why not?
>> So, Senator, as Miss Bogaart, um this first and foremost, I I I do say it is uh a disturbing practice. Um secondly um uh in terms of corrections and police uh it's a matter to work with the states and the territories. Uh it's their that they run the correction systems and and it's their state police forces. It's not uh as far as I'm aware federal police associated with this. Um we have as a standing item on the SCAG agenda the closing the gap. Um and there is a opportunity there to engage with the states and the territories.
>> Minister, will you ensure as best you that your government through the attorney general will have on the next SCAG an agenda item to lead this country away from a situation where women giving birth are being shackled to their beds by handcuffs and other restraints? Will will your government undertake to lead that discussion at SCAg to prevent this happening?
>> Uh well, what I will do um uh in response to that, Senator Shoebridge, I shall uh uh raise it with the attorney general today. I will request that she favorably consider your proposal and hopefully uh I'll be able to report back to you um on that topic.
Secretary, a recent report, Senate report into youth justice highlighted a series of disturbing trends. Um, you're aware of that report that was delivered.
>> I am, Senator. Yes.
>> Um, when do we expect the government to provide a response to that?
Um, Senator, ultimately the timing will be a matter for government, but the attorney general's department is very much aware of uh the committee's report and the work that you and other senators did on that. Our department will take responsibility for the coordination of preparing the government's response. Um, but the timing uh of that response is ultimately a matter for the government.
>> Um, Secretary, I assume that at a minimum you'll be meeting the Senate timetable requiring a response within 6 months. Is that the goal or is it intended to produce a response before
>> Um, Senator, as Mr. Collett said, uh, ultimately the timing of the government response is a matter for government.
>> Well, one of the key recommendations, unanimous recommendations of that report was to progress national minimum standards for youth justice and youth detention. given there was clear legal advice provided to the committee that the Commonwealth can progress national minimum standards for youth justice and youth detention. Is your government intending to progress that through SCAG?
>> Uh, and as I said earlier to one of your questions, um, obviously this is not my portfolio. I shall raise it with the attorney general and come back to you. Uh Senator Schubert.
Secretary, I assume your department is disturbed by the trends that are seen in relation to those two closing the gap targets 10 and 11. You must be disturbed
by the data. Um Senator, as I said to Senator Thorpe, um it uh is um disappointing that there has been a deterioration. Uh it's it's not a universal picture around the country. There are some variations and that goes to different approaches in state and territory justice systems uh and um uh various laws uh that state and territory governments h have implemented but uh I agree uh that um we are we are trending uh not in the right direction. Well, I
mean, let's not pretend. Um, uh, closing the gap 11 says says young people should not be over Sorry, I'll start again. Let's not pretend. Closing the gap number 11 says First Nations young people should not be over represented in the criminal justice system. That's the um uh the justice reform initiative, justice is failing and others analyzed the most recent data and they they they did that analysis as at May of this year and they found this that over the five years to May of this year the number of children in detention on average on an average day rose by 8.5%. While the number under communities based supervision fell by 13%. The number of First Nations young people aged 10 and over in detention on an average day increased by 21%. First Nations over representation in detention grew sharply with Aboriginal and Toristra Islander children, rising from 16 times more likely 5 years ago to be detained than a non non-indigenous children to around 23 times as likely according to the latest data. That isn't just missing the target. that is that is matters are vastly worse are vastly worse over the course of this government the Albani Labor government they've got
certainly um the the numbers there uh are concerning um uh and over that period it reflects uh different um positions that have been adopted in states and territories. Uh, and there have been um a range of changes. Um, but I I recognize that those those figures represent a deterioration.
>> You you say a range of changes. What that actually means is in the Northern Territory, radical steps backwards have been taken so that more and more First Nations children are being refused bail, placed into detention, um, children as young as 10. Um, there are harsher laws against bail being applied to children in the NT and Queensland than applied against adults. Queensland lock watch houses, police cells are filled to bursting normally with First Nations kids who have no access to any support, any health in overcrowded conditions, sometimes for weeks or months. The New South Wales government has made harsher bales bail laws which we have seen drive First Nations ch more and more First Nations children into jail. And yet the Commonwealth government has placed not a single legal restraint against them. Has not withdrawn a dollar of funding and in the case of the Northern Territory is paying 80 cents in the dollar for every one of these vicious attacks that the Northern Territory government has taken. Apart from hand ringing, what have you done?
>> Well, Senator, I I don't believe it's just been hand ringing. There is a recognition uh uh of the challenge uh consistent with the Commonwealth's responsibilities. Uh we have um implemented justice reinvestment initiatives uh in 28 locations.
>> 13 of which are youth specific.
>> You're cutting the funding. It's like it was 26 million. It's now gone down to 20 million. to to have the Commonwealth government, which has a budget in the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars, tell us your response to this is a $20 million justice reinvestment program. And to put that forward continually as a solution is insulting to the scale of the problem. It's insulting to the scale of
Senator, I I should also add there's um very significant funding through the National Access to Justice Partnership uh for Aboriginal Toristra Islander Legal Services uh uh that play a significant role uh in supporting uh young uh First Nations um people who interact with the criminal justice system. uh and um as I said the work that we're doing through the justice policy partnership with with First Nations community groups uh and with the states and the territories uh and we can talk to a range of issues that are being focused on in that forum um uh and we continue to engage directly with the states and the territories through the scanding standing committee of attorneys.
>> To be clear, you engage with them and they just defy you. They don't care what you say because they know you're never going to hold them to account. You're not going to pass a law. You're not going to take a dollar off them. You go to the meetings and they just ignore you. They ignore the Commonwealth government. They they they just walk over you and keep putting more and more First Nations kids in jail. That's that's what's happened here for four years now. When are you going to have some serious response pass a law or take a dollar off these state and territory governments that seem to be willfully breaching the closing the gap target deliberately intentionally?
>> Thank you, Senator Shoebridge. I'll uh after the officials at the table respond
>> When are you going to take a dollar off
them or pass a law? Well, Senator, uh um in our federation, the states and the territories are responsible for their justice systems. They're responsible for their corrective services. Uh we play uh a role through uh through the National Access to Justice Partnership Agreement and through the Justice Reinvestment Program uh consistent with the Commonwealth constitutional
of the chair's comments about time, but also just to clarify, I don't believe there's been a cut to the justice reinvestment funding, but we could provide further detail with time.
>> No, you haven't taken a single dollar off the Northern Territory government. 80 cents in the dollar of every spit hood that's put on a First Nations child is paid for by the Commonwealth. 80 cents in the dollar of every jail cell that is built to put a First Nations child in is paid for by the Commonwealth. And you keep giving the money to abuse kids like this. You keep feeding the feeding them the money.
>> Thank you, Senator Schub. I am going to uh share the call and I'll go to Senator Sullivan.