Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 1:13:10 to 1:24:09
Discussion turns to pregnancy discrimination in the workplace and the intersectional challenges faced by First Nations employees.
Topics: Employment, Human rights
Speakers: Senator Mehreen Faruqi, Dr Anna Cody, Senator Nita Green, Unknown Speaker
>> Uh, thank you chair and good evening everyone. Thank you for being here. I might have I have some questions as well for the sex discrimination commissioner um Dr. Codi. Um, just on pregnancy discrimination, Dr. Cody. Um, so in 2017 when I was in New South Wales Parliament, I was quite shocked when a woman called my office and said that she had been legally discriminated against and fired because she hadn't disclosed to the employer at the time of uh um hiring that she was pregnant. And indeed, when we looked at the anti-discrimination laws, there were exemptions where employers could indeed um not hire or fire people who had not disclosed at the time of hiring that they were pregnant. So I did get going to get that law changed and that was changed. So I really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for the work that you've done especially in your latest report on pregnancy discrimination which was also highlighted recently in the four corners episode and the report did find that despite legal protections pregnancy and caring related discrimination is still really common place. what needs to be done to make a cultural shift that we clearly need to ensure that pregnancy, breastfeeding, and caring responsibility aren't a barrier to workers rights.
Unfortunately, as you say, Senator, pregnancy discrimination, family responsibilities, discrimination, and breastfeeding discrimination are all still far too common. From the people that we consulted with, we heard that this is common place across all industries. In some male-dominated industries, it's more frequent, more common, and that despite many changes in our law to enable better paid parental leave, that there is still barriers in place for sharing of care within families. So, we have 18 recommendations in our report. I'd be very happy to meet with you and brief you on the findings
makes clear that this discrimination is compounded for First Nations people, people of color, and temporary visa holders. And we know that the intersection of racism and misogyny is something that women of color often come against in a workplace. How did you see this manifest in your research in
>> So, one of the requirements to get unpaid parental leave is 12 months continuous service. And so we know that migrant women, first nations women, uh women with disabilities are more likely to be in casual or temporary work and therefore it's harder for them to demonstrate that they have that 12 months continuous service. >> And we also know that uh many of those women particularly on visa uh don't have that entitlement to any of those benefits either. So, and the other part of it is definition of family. That for First Nations families, many of those families have a more extended and broader understanding of kinship and family and that that's not recognized within the law. And similarly, that caring responsibilities and migrant refugee families will often go across different countries and that's not recognized within the law.
>> Um, so have you briefed any ministers, commissioner, um, or agencies on the findings of the report?
Uh I have we have sent the report and offered to brief a range of ministers and members of parliament. We are in the process of arranging some of those meetings.
>> Okay. So you haven't yet heard back from the government on what it intends to do with the findings of your report?
>> No, we haven't. Senator,
>> um does the existing positive duty on employers create obligations to avoid pregnancy discrimination?
uh it it is definitely pregnancy discrimination and discrimination on the basis of breastfeeding would be covered within the positive duty and so yes there is a positive responsibility on employers to eliminate as far as possible that form of discrimination sex discrimination
>> but that still hasn't kind of manifested because we're seeing it happening. >> Yeah.
>> Unfortunately it it is still frequent. M
and is more funding needed to support working women's centers to represent women affected by pregnancy
of working women's centers funded from the government around each state and territory who are being very effective in representing women who are experiencing pregnancy discrimination or other forms of discrimination.
>> And do you think it's sufficient at the moment from what your research suggests?
Uh it is although the the concern would be that it would be an ongoing permanent funding arrangement.
>> Yeah. And it isn't at the moment.
>> My understanding is it's a 5year
>> Yeah. Um and it was really devastating to see the women on four corners who had lost their jobs u because of pregnancy discrimination were forced out or were demoted um you know after having kids. And I was partic particularly concerned that one of the women who spoke to the program is employed in the public service. Uh because I think for me how can we expect business or you know private organizations to do better if our own public service is failing acceptable standards. Um what would you like to see change in the APS to address this?
Uh there are a range of recommendations in the report certainly uh a broader understanding of [clears throat] notions of care uh as well as uh removing the requirement for 12 months continuous service. Uh so so strengthening the access to parental leave and also the right to request flexible working arrangements rather than it being a right to request. One of the recommendations is that the owner should be on the employer to demonstrate that it's unreasonable not to have flexible working arrangements and also the use of redundancy. We know that that's one of the mechanisms that employers use around pregnancy and around caring responsibilities. So again to put the onus on employer to demonstrate that it's a genuine redundancy if that
>> And um Dr. Cody, do you intend on having a meeting with the APS commissioner as well to talk through the report and its recommendations?
>> We are intending that.
>> Yeah. Okay. Um, just going through the report kind of really made me reflect on where we're at right now. I mean, it certainly feels like women are copying it from all sides at the moment. Um, recently the University of Melbourne released, I think, pretty scary research about young people's attitudes towards women. One of the most horrifying statistics for me was that almost a quarter of boys aged 13 to 17 believe feminism is damaging to our society and should be resisted with violence if necessary. At the same time, we've seen 60 women killed by violence um this year. Do you have a sense given you do so much work um in um sex discrimination, do you have a sense that things have shifted in particular with the rise of the manosphere and its extremely misogynistic content which is so readily available online these days?
Senator, I think we're seeing a relationship between an online and social media environment and then violence in reality and that that certainly is a part of um young men's experience. We know that th those concerning attitudes that you detailed of 14 to 17 year olds that research is very strong and powerful. So we have a lot of work to do and certainly the section second action plan on violence will be a very important plan to focus on those younger men younger communities and ensuring that respectful relationships are embedded within our
>> Um Commissioner obviously the intersection of violence of hate of racism of discrimination and misogyny is very overwhelming. How do you view these intersecting kind of discriminations and what role do you feel they play in policym?
>> It's vital to understand for in in my area sex discrimination and LGBTQI plus discrimination to recognize that there is that diversity within the group of women. So women includes first nations women ex women women's experience women with disability migrant and refugee women and making sure that policy is shaped by the communities that it is attempting to assist or to influence and so it is very important and so those are some of the recommendations out of the reports that I have done is to ensure that there is input from those communities in shaping of policy.
U Minister, I have a couple of questions for you. You've heard the commissioner u say a few times about um you know this removing the requirement that an employee works in a role for 12 months before they're eligible for paid parental leave and this came up quite a few times. Uh it is one of the problems where people um pregnant people are discriminated against as well. Uh and it is very clear that it is necessary to make this change. Um, is closing this loophole something your government will commit to changing?
>> Uh, well, Senator, thank you for the question and I do want to acknowledge those reports um on four corners um and the um experience of those women. Um, of course, as you know, our our laws prohibit discrimination of that kind. Um and what it highlights is and what the report from the commission highlights is um that discrimination occurring despite the laws that we have. We are um considering the report now. Um so I don't have any further information for you this evening. Um but we will um go through those findings um and have more to say if there's a response from government
>> and nothing about the specific um removal of the 12 months.
>> Not not to that senator. We've we've just received the report as I understand. Um so we will do what we um uh what we should and consider it um in the full context of those findings.
>> Okay. And commissioner, I really want to thank you for the excellent work that you and your team do. Um thanks chair.
>> Senator BL.