Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 1:07:19 to 1:13:10
The commission is questioned on the practical guidance provided to small businesses regarding single-sex events and exemptions.
Topics: Human rights, Law reform
Speakers: Senator The Hon Michaelia Cash, Dr Anna Cody, Unknown Speaker, Senator Jana Stewart
>> So you voted against it. The only commissioner who voted for the exemption and I think we must have worked through this at the last estimates was Commissioner Finlay. In terms of small business, post the High Court not accepting the special leave application, there is now a lot of concern amongst small businesses uh in relation to what the status of the law actually is. And again, sadly, I put these questions to the department this morning and they were unable to assist these small businesses in any way and in fact advised them that they should get a lawyer, which I was very disappointed with because they're battling to keep their heads above water, let alone actually having to go and get a lawyer to answer the questions. One of the questions that I've been sent from a small business in Australia, they've advertised a biological women's only event. It's sold out. It's going to be held on the 7th of November. They have tried to get guidance. They genuinely want to do the right thing here. They have tried to get guidance from lawyers from the Victorian Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission, commissioners there, uh the human rights law at MES center, a lawyer, and several small businesses. All they want to know, and I'm hoping that you as the sex discrimination commissioner who is responsible for this law, are you able to tell them, they have not got an It is a soldout event. They will have people on the door. They all they want to know is if a man turns up and says he identifies as a woman, do they have to allow that person in? That's all they want to know.
>> Senator, I cannot give advice or answers to hypothetical scenarios.
>> That is not a hypothetical. It's a question that I have in front of me from a small business who is literally now at its wits end in trying to get advice as to what is a simple question. Are they entitled to say no at the door to men who identify as women?
>> Senator, I cannot answer that question. Firstly, I don't have all the facts. Secondly, we may receive a complaint about it and so I cannot prejudge or the commission cannot respond to something about which we may receive a complaint.
>> Is it set out in your guidance on your website for small businesses?
>> We have uh guidance the exemption guidelines which provides information to businesses and organizations. I am also aware that if a business or an organization rings the commission that generally that person will be spoken to about whether there is a need for an exemption to be sought and they will be talked through their process for seeking an exemption.
>> I'm going to I said to them I'd put these questions to you in the hope that they might be able to get some guidance. So, in good faith, I will put those questions to you. As I said, this is a soldout women's only event that will be occurring on the 7th of November. 250 biological women are expected, very simple questions. The first one, can our privately operated ticket event legally be women only without an
As I've said, Senator, I refer to my previous answer. I cannot answer that question.
>> Okay. For this purpose, how does the law define who is eligible to attend? Surely as the sex discrimination commissioner who administers the sex discrimination act, you're able to answer that question.
>> I'm unable to answer that question, Senator.
>> Okay. If someone identifies as a woman, is that sufficient for admission to this
event? Senator, as I've said, in a hypothetical situation, I cannot answer those questions.
>> It's not a hypothetical situation. Again, it's a real situation that more and more businesses are facing on a daily basis, but the human rights commissioners are unable to give them guidance. Um, what can their staff legally ask someone if there is uncertainty at law?
>> Senator, I cannot answer that question.
Uh, when, if ever, can they legally refuse entry?
Senator, I cannot give legal advice to them.
>> Can you at least outline to them what the law says or is that also impossible
>> and I refer that that business to both the giggle and tickle explainer on our website and also to our exemption guidelines.
>> Can I just ask you when is this small business that's battling to keep its head above water going to go on your website to read a tickle and giggle
>> I think that's a rhetorical question.
>> no. It's a genuine question. That's what you've referred them to. You're the sex discrimination commissioner. You administer this act. I'm merely asking you for clarification for this business as to what the law now says. And you have told them that they can go on to your website to look at a tickle and
>> I refer to my
>> Is that your evidence?
>> I refer to my previous answer. Senator
>> That's fine. We'll come back to this.
>> Thank you, Senator Cash. Senator Fergie.