Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 1:59:57 to 2:13:45
Following a brief discussion on data custodian agreements, the committee examines 11 escapes from Secure Journeys facilities and the application of financial penalties (abatements) under the performance management framework.
Topics: Public service staffing, Integrity
Speakers: Senator David Shoebridge, Vanessa Holben, Gavan Reynolds, Speaker 1, Unknown Speaker, Amber Shuhyta, Hon Jonathon Duniam
level. Um so um uh if there is uh data throughout the year that is robust enough to to for me to understand that it is cleansed, it is a good point in time reflection and I have agreement from the data custodians, then I will do everything I can.
>> That's all we can ask for. Thank you.
Thank you, Senator Senator Shoebridge.
>> Oh. >> Oh, thanks very much, Sher. I have some questions about secure journeys and some in answers, um, to question or notice, we were told that as May, there had been 11 escapes from secure journeys and that each escape apparently attracts 100,000 quality failure points. Um um I was also told that a quality failure that a 100,000 quality failure points is equal to $100,000. Um um uh as at May had Secure Journeys paid $1.1 million um uh as a result of those 11 escapes.
>> Uh Senator, good evening. Uh so it's important to recognize that for the first 6 months there was a period in which um there wasn't an application of abatements. Um the first abatement was issued to secure journeys for a total of $8.4 million. uh and the escapes that occurred after that 6 months will attract uh an abatement of $100,000 per escape. And in addition, if there's been other failings by secure journey staff, that may attract other penalties.
sorry. So, um, how many of those 11 escapes as at, um, May, were there penalties paid for?
>> May, none.
>> Okay. So, so despite having had 11 escapes, secure journeys paid not a single dollar
Senator, it's important to recognize that through the performance management framework, the application of those abatements is delayed. The first abatement has been applied and then where there has been escapes uh over the following months, an abatement will be applied for those escapes, but it hasn't yet been applied.
Um sorry you you said in answers to question on notice that there had been sec S sec this is answering a question asked in May secure journeys has had 11 escapes as the detention facilities and security provider you talk about the performance management framework they're treated as a charge one event and for each of those they attract um a 100,000 quality failure points and 100,000 quality failure points is equal to $100,000. But what you didn't say is that actually those penalties won't be applied. But we now find out that those penalties are not being applied.
>> No, Senator. So for the first 6 months of the contract, there is a grace period.
>> All right. So how many of those 11 escapes were in the first 6 months of the contract? Do you have that?
>> So, um, Senator, there are eight escapes between 1 July 2025 to 30th of June 2026.
>> Yeah.
>> So, the way that the, um, the contract performance management framework works is that the commissioner um noted the $ 8.4 million of abatements that is for a one month period. So, there's always going to be a lag. So the September 2025 abatement period for that monthly performance reporting period was $8.4 million.
that >> I've asked you I'm more than happy to go through this abatement process later. I've just asked you what I thought was a simple question. Of those 11 escapes, um, how many of them have had the the quality failure points actually apply applied and for how many of them have secure journeys had to make a payment?
>> I'll need to take that on notice. What what I will say, Senator, is from my there would be one, but but I'd need to take that on notice so that I can get you the the time period and and be accurate with
>> all right. But then you also tell me each of you that there was a grace period of 6 months. And so, would that have run from 1 July 2025 to 31 December?
>> No. So the the grace period that the commissioner referred to was at the commencement of the contract in 2025 in April 2025. >> There's a six-month grace period until September 2025 and then that's when the performance management framework >> um commences from September 2025.
>> So are you telling me that the 11 escapes well 10 of the 11 escapes happened between April and September of 2025? Is that what you're telling me?
>> What I can tell you, Senator, is >> so we had eight escapes from 1 July 2025. So from the reporting period of September 2025, that's when the commencement of the contract performance management framework commences post the grace period. We had >> seven escapes. >> During that period.
>> Okay. From September 2025, which is when the grace period ended until what? 1 July 2026. Is that where there were seven escapes? >> And have has there been a payment made because of those seven escapes? So um to
explain the monthly performance reporting it it's taken by a month. So the charge event which is so an escape under the contract is a charge event. Yeah. >> So we have to look at the September 2025
>> Deputy commissioner I don't care if the abatement happened in Sep one happened in September one happened in October another happened in April. I just want to know if those if secure journeys let seven people escape in breach of the contract that's meant to have a $100,000 penalty each time. Have they been hit with a $100,000 penalty for each of those seven escapes? And if not, why
>> So, Senator, just so just so there's clarity. So they will be um required to pay for seven escapes during the period and uh although they have not paid that charge event yet they will. Why the
delay? We're now in October 2026. Why have they still not paid for the seven escapes that happened last
each month post the month ending when we look at the compliance of the contract and the performance of the contract there's a lag time between the end of the month and then working through the secure journeys and healthcare Australia on validating evidence that they provide us on the monthly compliance performance. So we would do through the month we'll do our own assurance um monitoring and then the validation process begins post the month. So there's
>> So how long you are you telling me that the validation process for the escapes that happened in September have still not concluded that you're still looking at the September 2025
>> September September is validated which is the commissioner's abatement dollar figure of $8.4 million.
>> So that was for the single month in in September they had to pay $8.4 $4 million for for breaches.
>> That's right.
>> And was any of that for escapes?
>> Yes, Senator. So that so if so the September data of of escapes
>> was how many
>> which is calculated within the September monthly performance reporting there were four escapes in September 2025.
>> Okay. And so four escapes in one month. And for that single month, they've had to pay $8.4 million in breaches. >> What about October of 2025?
>> So October is still being worked through. So September we've finalized and which is the context around what I'm saying is the lag time from month ending to then validating the evidence from secure journeys and or health healthcare Australia. We go through the same process.
>> So um I'm just going to pause very briefly. I um actually might suggest we have a quick private meeting to talk about how we're going to manage the rest of the program.
>> Can I ask three quick things and we might be able to move on from this outcome?
>> It you're not the only person with questions still remaining. So I think we should have a quick private meeting to talk about how we're going to manage the remainder of the program. >> We'll just suspend very briefly while we in outcome 3 until 9:05 at which point