Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee, , 7:47:25 to 8:08:27
The department provides updates on the Black Spot Program project withdrawals and the status of transport infrastructure surrounding the Western Sydney International Airport.
Topics: Infrastructure, Grants administration, Emissions reduction
Speakers: Matthew Canavan, Matt O'Sullivan, Katrina Kendall, Marisa Purvis-Smith, Speaker 50, Hon Matthew Canavan, Jessica Hall, Jim Betts, Senator Matthew Canavan, Speaker 36, Speaker 51
Uh, Senator O. Sullivan, thank you. Yeah, I just want to go to answer the questions that I had last time in relation to the black spot programs. And I want to just zero in on one particular project just to help me understand how you go about making decisions. So, it's a bit of a I'm interested in the project, but it's more broadly about how you uh how you come to a decision. Um, so refer to the Marmy Nav Coral Street. Do you want the project number? >> Does the number help or just the title of the
>> uh the title will be fine. Just say Marian Avenue.
>> Marian Avenue hyphen Coral Street.
>> Yep, we've got that one. Thank you.
>> So, can you confirm the status of the
Uh, I can senator. Apologies while I find the right page. Uh, thank you, Senator. So, the that project, the Marian Avenue Coral Street um project, we have had a request in from Main Roads WA for that project to be withdrawn from the program. Yeah. >> Um, so that uh that request is I think either in its final stages of preparation for me as a delegate or it could be with me as of Friday to consider.
>> Okay. Yes. So I wanted to go to that. So um so it's still listed as in planning though, isn't it? Yeah. >> And then so the main roads have requested it to be withdrawn. I understand I think you said to us that there were you found a gas pipeline or something.
>> Yeah. some utilities works around the gas pipeline that have meant the cost is um uh they're no longer able to deliver within that scope of cost.
>> So So Main Roads have requested that the project be withdrawn. Um is it because of the costs?
>> Uh I'd have to take that on notice, but I understand it is because of the cost. So the cost to to relocate that um gas pipeline means that it's it's not essentially feasible to deliver as it is. >> Yeah. Um for context I suppose under the so under the project guidelines the the proponent can request to withdraw that project. It can be recent.
>> Were they the original proponent?
>> Yeah the original proponent. Um uh >> did you say the name off?
>> Was was was Main Roads the original proponent of the project?
>> Yeah, that's my understanding. Um that doesn't prevent I guess that project from being rescoped and submitted for consideration in a future round. So that's something that they could look at doing to redesign and bring it back.
>> So if it's because of this gas pipeline because it I guess I understand it's hypothetical but I'm just trying to understand how how you come to a so originally it was approved for a certain amount of money and then but because it's maybe way out outside of that scope it's got to be rescoped. Is that is that what's potentially happening?
>> That's essentially my understanding of it Senator. Yeah. So I I when for a little bit of context when a project comes forward to the blackspot um program for funding so there's um a proposal that's nominated um it goes through a consultative panel for assessment at the state level and then is recommended for funding. >> Projects when they're approved can go through be at different stages within that and so often they're at the early design stage and so some of these technical issues don't arise until later in that process. Um there's also a sort of a BCR requirement on um the projects that sometimes then means if the project cost goes up the BCR then falls below the limits that um are required under that program. So it might be that they need to have a look at the redesign and bring that back for consideration again.
>> Can you table the the request for the withdrawal and the reasons?
>> Uh I can take that on notice. We may have to consult with WA on just on the
So the the the project's put forward because it's considered to be a black spot eligible um project. Um it's a dangerous intersection various other factors. So that those circumstances haven't changed. So it would still be considered a dangerous intersection uh that's that needs to be upgraded. So, so what when you're making the judgment as to whether or not it should be withdrawn or that that off that request for it to be withdrawn is accepted, do you take into consideration the initial uh um factors that got it on the list in the first
yes, it's a bit of a tricky one to answer. I think um essentially in terms of that withdrawal request if and I will have to take on notice the details of it but if it is that it's then guess essentially puts that project into a category that we can't that doesn't meet the um the requirements for program funding so the BCR is is lower >> um that's something that we would have to take into consideration but if I could take the detail and notice and
come back to you. So then this is a project that was initially expected to start in July 2021. Is that correct?
>> Uh it was approved in the 2021-22 um funding round. Correct. That is annual annual consideration by the panel. So that was the 21-22 consultative panel round.
>> And it it's still listed on your website or on a a website. Uh when does that get updated? Is it once you've made the decision?
>> Yeah. So, that one will be updated once that decision's made. Um, a little bit of I guess if it's helpful further context. So, um the reporting that we get from the states and territories for that program does come into us quarterly. Um, a lot of the projects in the program are delivered by the local councils, but the funding goes through the state. So, there also then can be a bit of a time lag between the information that comes from a council and then from the state and then to us quarterly. Um we do have some when variations um requests coming in. We do then have updates from time to time, but there are I think off the top of my head 700ish active black spots projects nationally. So there is sometimes a bit of a time lag between the website updates and the variation be processed.
>> The the decision on on whether it uh whether it's withdrawn uh when's that
expected? Uh I would expect if that's sorry there are a number sitting with me um for approval that um I got last week. So I would expect that to be soon.
>> Can it be overturned or can it be not accepted?
>> Um might have to take that on notice.
when uh when a when any given Blackspot program project is withdrawn, do you reallocate that budget funding?
>> Uh yes. So that funding that's allocated so the black spot funding is allocated to each state on a um formula basis. So that um funding that's not going to that project will go back into the WA state
allocation. They can put up an alter.
>> They can put up an alternative project
>> or rescope it or
>> rescope and resubmit through a future.
great. Thank you. Uh, can I just thanks for that. I'm just going to go to a couple of follow-up questions in relation to Western Sydney Airport. Have we got the right people? Great. Um, I know that Senator I think it was Senator McGrath was asking some questions already. I just want to understand the the 15th Avenue upgrade. So, Bradfield to Liverpool, is this still in
>> S. So, this is uh um questions around um infrastructure. So, my team has left, but I'll do my best and see what I can answer. Otherwise, I might have to take it on notice for you. So, bear with me for a second. Uh so um on this one the current status is the New South Wales government has completed the strategic business case um which will inform the final business case for the project.
>> Okay. Uh so is it okay? So hasn't yet been funded then because you're still
waiting on that. uh a contract for concept design of the project was awarded awarded in July 2025.
>> Okay. >> Uh in terms of the freight and logistics precinct, that would be at Western Sydney Airport. Where where's that? Have you got leases signed, tenency, vacancies, that sort of thing?
>> Uh that will be a question for WSA.
>> Uh this might also be for them. I understand cargo operations will commence at the airport before passenger operations. Will the road infrastructure for logistics precinct be ready in time for that?
>> Uh so um as we answered earlier today, we are comfortable that the M12 and all of the surrounding roads um will be able to service the airport. Um but in regards to the timing of um how the airport's going to run, those questions should be um uh addressed to WSA this
great. That'll do it for me. Thanks.
>> Thank you, Chair. Um should only be a short number to go and we'll wrap this up. Um uh just checking um uh up for an update on the trucking industry. Uh there have been uh quite a lot of increased insolvenies I'm told in transport, postal and where in the transport, postal and warehousing sector. Is that something that the department is
>> Uh Sally Todd, assistant secretary of land transport policy. Uh thanks for the question, Senator. Yeah, we're aware um of the uh the kind of recent closures in the last few months. Um we're we're monitoring the situation. Um there's a variety of factors that could be influencing uh specific heavy vehicle operators, for example, higher fuel prices, increased labor prices, uh higher new truck prices, falling secondhand truck prices, um the withdrawal of COVID era supports, uh uh regulatory charges and tolls and competition with the industry. as you pointed out uh the data usually usually reports on uh transport, postal and warehousing. So it's different difficult to tell exactly um what the impacts on trucking are. Uh we have been working um with colleagues uh in the department of employment and workplace relations on issues around sham contract sham contracting and other um employment practices. uh our portfolio continues to focus on u making the heavy vehicle sector as productive as possible by doing things like the new heavy vehicle national law that is set to commence this year uh the freight supply chain strategy and infrastructure investment.
>> Okay. Well, I was I was going to go to sham contracting. Did the department attend the road transport industry roundt on sham contracting and the shadow economy on the 12th of November last year?
>> That's the one I held.
>> Yeah. No, we we were not present
>> with the agencies ask,
>> right? But the department didn't. Department officials did. >> Okay. Um did the department provide a brief to the minister before she
>> Uh yes, we did provide briefing.
>> Um uh the industry participants to my understanding have raised concerns that uh sham contracting has arisen due to uh the government's closing the loopholes IR legislation. Are you aware of these complaints?
>> Is this Michael McCormack's crap? You want to know what's happen?
>> Okay. Well, chair, come on. Chair,
>> don't listen to Michael McCormack. Come
and talk to me. >> Chair, look today's been >> hang. You can ask your own questions. I'm only repeating what the the concerns that have been raised. So, is the department
>> Yeah, the department is aware of the concerns being raised and as I said, that's a matter for the Department of Employment and Workplace Relations.
>> Okay. All right. Uh are you working with that department about these issues?
>> Yes, we're meeting with them regularly on these issues.
>> Okay. All right. Um uh the communicate communicate out of that round table mentioned that all participants and it included the minister who was there agreed to establish a national joint agency enforcement and intelligence program. Has such a program been established?
>> No, that wasn't the case.
>> Well, it's information I've got.
>> It was misreported in I think you got
big Well, maybe you could correct the reporting, correct the record for us, but apparently that's that was an outcome >> apparently. Um, >> has that has such a has such a joint agency enforcement intelligence program been uh suggested to you by the minister? Has she asked for information >> or some briefs? No. Okay. >> Has there been any other chair? Like, come on. Seriously, mate. Well, you're not you're not helping. You're interrupting your chair. >> Uh, okay. will invite me next time. Um, what concrete action has been undertaken since the round table meeting?
>> So, Senator, these questions probably go best to um, ATO and employment workplace relations. The um, minister for employment workplace relations has announced the closing the loopholes act review. Uh, so is looking at that first issue raised around the closing loopholes legislation. Also, the ATO has established a shadow economy compliance program uh to identify and respond to new and emerging shadow economy risks.
>> Yeah, that was going to be my next question. Are you working with the ATO on that issue?
>> We are in contact with the ATO.
>> Okay. And uh is there any plans for increased roadside compliance checks?
>> That would be need to be directed to those agencies managing those programs.
Um uh and just on this topic too in my own area uh it's more money related but there's a lot of small businesses are reporting massive increases in freight costs. Uh uh there does seem to be a particular issue with a lack of competition uh in smaller country towns. Are you aware of these issues at all?
Not specifically, Senator >> in the broad broadly. Yes. But not specifically in relation.
>> It's really putting the viability of like I've got small businesses now that have to uh drive themselves to Brisbane 700 km away >> uh to pick up uh freight uh themselves and bring back cuz it's just prohibitive to uh contract for that to be brought up just basic stock for a small business. Um okay. All right. Uh now I might have had I'd missed some before. It shouldn't take too long. Um I just wanted to quickly c catch up on um uh on uh sick days um at uh well sick slash interruptions at airports um particularly obviously air traffic control. Um you're probably aware on the 16th of January at least 30 Quantis and Jet Star flights and 10 Virgin services were cancelled in Sydney. Um there were reports that this was caused by four Sydney based air traffic controls calling in sick. Are those reports correct?
>> Uh Senator, those questions should be directed to air air services Australia who will be appearing later this evening.
>> Okay. Have you made any inquiries the department of them though about what happened there? It's quite it was quite a big interruption. well recorded.
>> Air services Australia provided updates to the department and also to the minister and minister's office throughout that period.
>> Has there been um any action taken since by the minister or the department since this incident?
>> That is that is a matter for air services. They um they manage air services, they manage their staff and uh under their enterprise bargaining arrangements. That would be a a
question. I'm just checking is the minister taken any action following this event.
>> So the office will have spoken to Air Services Australia. Um it's up to Air Services Australia to manage their staffing
>> because um Graeme Samuel um I believe represents some of the bigger airlines has called for the minister to intervene to examine why 3 years after the pandemic there are still insufficient air traffic controllers. >> So is the minister taking any action to try and rectify this problem?
>> Um thank you Senator. the the minister h provides uh statement of expectations to air services Australia. Air services Australia provides reports to the department and the minister I think on a quarterly basis but on a regular basis. Um this is something that she has uh and and the CEO of Air Services Australia will be able to take you through this in more detail. Discussed this with uh Air Services Australia uh that the how they go about managing their staffing is a matter for Air Services Australia.
>> Um for the passengers that were stranded um was there any compensation available for missing flights or other interruptions to their lives?
>> Uh I'm not aware of that. That will be up to the airline senator.
>> All right. But there's no liability on behalf of Air Service Australia.
>> No, Air Service Australia doesn't provide doesn't doesn't provide uh compensation. Senator,
>> are they cost recover?
>> They cost recover from the
>> but they don't but the airlines can't get any compensation if >> if if the services aren't what they are paying for.
>> There's no there's no recourse to compensation.
All right. Okay. Um I think if there's no one else that might do us for Oh, actually, sorry. I might quickly >> Outcome No, we're still on two. Just >> how much uh um how how many um uh what are what are what I believe Quantis and Virgin are both uh liable under the safeguard mechanism. what's their their baseline emissions and how far over their baselines were they in the last
>> So they've got mechanism as you know as a matter for the department etc.
>> Obviously they're the two major entities in this airlines.
>> See if I have that I I may do >> um but if you can bear with me
>> Thanks, Senator. Brennan Buckley, Assistant Secretary, Transport, Accessibility, and Future Fuels. Uh the information that I have, but it is information that's held by the Department of Climate Changes. Quantis' baseline is uh 4,472,910 tons and its emissions in the the 2324 reporting year were 4,528,000 tons. uh and they purchased 55,092 Australian carbon credit unit units to surrender to meet their baseline. Uh Virgin's baseline is 2,170,511 and its emissions in the 23 24 reporting period were 2,13,081. So below the below their baseline.
>> Do you know how much it costs them to buy those credit units?
>> Uh I don't have that information on me. No,
>> but those costs will have to be passed on to consumers in terms of higher airline prices.
>> I think that would be a matter for the airlines.
>> Well, that' have to. So, Yep. Okay. All right. Thank you.