Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 2:09:54 to 2:25:09
Investigation into Brisbane aircraft noise, community engagement failures, and mapping errors regarding the proximity of schools to flight paths.
Topics: Public safety, Health, Education
Speakers: Senator Paul Scarr, Ms Jacqui O'Dea, Rob Sharp, Unknown Speaker, Senator Bridget McKenzie, Interjection
>> Thank you. >> Yeah, very much. Uh, I've got a series of questions to you, Ms. Ordway, and um, can I first say how I appreciate how difficult your job is. Uh, I refer to Department question number SQ 26540, where the last estimates I asked whether or not you'd adopted uh, or undertaken any community visits, uh, to the communities in which Tingalpa State School and Gumdale State School are located. Do you remember that question? Have you got the answer there with you?
>> Uh, I remember the question, Senator. I'm not certain whether I've I I will have the answer
>> Okay. Well, I've I've got the answer. I'll run this through you.
>> Thank you.
>> Um, so you didn't you didn't address my question head on, if I can put it that way. What you did was give me the locations you did visit. Uh, so by process of elimination, uh, I got the result. So you said you visited Hamilton, Bulimba, Morningside, New Farm, and Brisbane Airport. Do you remember that?
>> Yes, I did, sir.
>> Answer?
>> Yes.
>> So there was no community visit to Tingalpa?
>> Senator, no. Not that I recall.
>> There was no community visit to Gumdale, where I've spoken to a constituent who, out of his own pocket, has spent tens of thousands of dollars on insulation to his house to mitigate against the aircraft noise. You didn't visit Gumdale?
>> No, Senator.
>> There was no visit to the community in Brookfield or Upper Brookfield in relation to which I received an email from, uh, a lady just last Tuesday, who wrote, "I'm writing to complain about constant flights directly over our home in Upper Brookfield, Brisbane, today that are not on the regular path. From 1:25 p.m. today, flights are coming in sometimes 1 minute apart. These flights are not following the approved path and are causing my family immense stress and mental anguish." End quote. You didn't have any community visits to Upper Brookfield or Brookfield?
Senator, personally, I haven't visited Brookfield or Upper Brookfield. However, I expect that my team, the community engagement team, who have run many engagement sessions across Brisbane, uh, over a long period of time, actually, will have absolutely visited Brookfield and Upper Brookfield.
>> Okay. I want to refer to an exchange of correspondence which you had, and I'll Secretary to give you the if you can just give that to Ms. Ordway. I've got further copies which you can circulate to members of the committee. So, I'm giving you four And the documents are a letter from a Mr. Jordan Pine. He's been an advocate with respect to Tingalpa State School there for other members of the committee. And your response of 3 July 2026. Do you remember writing
>> As Senator, yes, I do recall looking at this letter before it was sent. Yes.
>> So, Mr. uh Pine's letter of 29 May 2026 referred to his concerns in relation to Tingalpa State School. That's correct, isn't it?
>> That's correct, yes.
>> And then your response of 3 July 2026 provided, and I'll say this for the benefit of Hansard, in the paragraph above the two maps you provide, you say, "A comparison of flight track data for calendar years 2019 and 2025 has been undertaken to consider the proximity of flight paths to Tingalpa State School. The results are shown in the images below with Tingalpa State School marked on both. It would appear the tracking is not concentrated over the school." End quote. Was that your response?
>> That's correct, Senator.
>> And from that, Ms. Ordway, you're basically saying because you've you've noted where Tingalpa State School is with that blue flag, and you're saying because it's not under the purple uh flight paths, then Tingalpa State School is not in proximity. Is that correct?
>> That's what we said in the letter at the time, Senator, but I am aware there is an error in this letter.
>> Ah, you're aware there's a letter, so uh a problem in the letter. So, if you turn to the next map,
>> Yes.
>> you will see I've blown up your image of where Tingalpa State School is. But then if you turn to the next map I printed out on Google Maps where Tingalpa State School actually is.
>> Yes.
>> And it's actually to the east considerably to the east of where you flagged it. And it's actually under the purple flight paths. Is that correct?
>> That's correct, Senator. Yes.
>> So, Ms Aday, what confidence can the people of Brisbane have that Air Services is correctly managing Brisbane aircraft noise particularly in relation to Tingalpa Tingalpa State School when you don't even know where Tingalpa State School
>> Senator, it is an error and we apologize for that error. It came to light at a an AAB meeting where one of the members there, so the Airport Advisory Board that had we established in Brisbane some time ago raised this with us and we've corrected it. I do believe but I will need to check with my team to make sure that that has been corrected. But we most certainly have acknowledged it to the advisory board and discussed it with them.
>> Well, Ms Aday, I challenge your characterization of this as simply an error because it's more than an error. It goes to your understanding of the impact of aircraft noise on Tingalpa State School and that community because in your letter you said that Tingalpa State School is marked on both it would appear the tracking is not concentrated over the school. That is not just a topographical error. It's not just cartographic error. This goes to the heart of the issue with respect to how the school is impacted by aircraft noise and it's actually under the concentrated flight paths, isn't it?
>> Yes, it is under the flight path, Senator, but I can assure you that at the time it was actually an error and when this letter was shown to me I most certainly believed that that was where the blue pin is, the location of Tingalpa State School.
>> Mr. Sharp, the issue goes to the heart of the issue. I raised I raised a question with respect to the impact of Brisbane aircraft noise on Tingalpa State School. Ms. Ordway, is your chief risk officer environmental officer, who hasn't even visited Tingalpa, wrote back to this concerned citizen, said there's no problem because it's not under the flight path. Do you understand how I How can I have confidence in Air Services Australia with respect to the concerns of my residents in Brisbane when you don't even know where key community infrastructure is located in the context of flight paths?
>> I can certainly see the frustration of the people in that location. I haven't been to that location.
>> been there either.
>> No, I I live in Brisbane.
>> No, no, I remember last time, but you don't live in Tingalpa. You live the other side of the river at Tennyson, yeah?
>> But what I can what I can
>> I remember.
>> What I can assure you is we will revisit the process to ensure that that we minimize that issue. However, there are a number of broader consultations that occurred over about 10 years.
>> Sorry, I've got I've got further questions, Mr. Sharp. You understand the point.
>> I do understand the point.
>> Are you embarrassed by that?
>> Look, it's not it's not something I'd like to see. It undermines confidence in the good work that we do do, and hence my comment about rounding back in on it, but I understand your point, Senator.
>> Well, it's not my point, it's the constituents. Is it Is it true that you might Can I I saw this yesterday. >> Mhm. >> Is it true that you make your employee assistance package for counseling for employees under distress, etc., that you make that package available to people impacted by aircraft noise?
>> We do provide support for people who are impacted, and I'm not sure Ms. Ordway whether you know the detail of that particular support that [clears throat and snorts] we provide?
>> I I I know that there are a number of programs that we run in relation to to assisting both our employees and others who may be impacted by aircraft noise, including our employee assistance
>> Can you understand how I how that undermines my confidence in terms of how Air Services Australia is managing aircraft noise in our country if you have to go to the extraordinary lengths of offering your own employee assistance program to people impacted by aircraft noise? To me, that's Titanic of failure. Tell me I'm wrong.
>> Uh, aircraft noise is a very complex area and there are multiple views in the community about the noise. there there is a reality that some people are actually really impacted by that noise and it is a service that we do provide to those individuals. Uh, I believe it is a community service as part of this. Uh, aircraft noise, whilst we're optimizing the spread, is still there. There there is there is a trade-off. Under our legislation we promote aviation, but we also need to look at how we
minimize noise. >> extraordinary lengths of providing an employee assistance program to those people impacted by aircraft noise. To me, that's a failure of managing the impacts of aircraft noise. Can you understand how I come to that >> Okay. Uh, I'll move on. I've got some further questions. Air Services Australia's preliminary environmental impact assessment data 25 July 2025 reportedly places Tingalpa State School within an area forecast to experience between 10 and 20 aircraft noise events exceeding 70 decibels per day. However, Air Services Australia Air Services own monitoring data for September 2025 to August 2026 records an average of 56 such events per day. How does Air Services explain the significant discrepancy between its environmental modeling and the actual aircraft noise recorded at Tingalpa State School?
>> Senator, that's probably a question I'll have to take on notice.
The July 2025 preliminary environmental impact assessment identifies no schools within the N70 to 50 contour representing areas forecast to experience at least 50 aircraft noise events exceeding 70 decibels per day. Given that Air Services own monitoring recorded an average of 56 such events per day at Tingalpa State School, does Air Services accept that its modeling may have materially underestimated aircraft noise exposure at the school?
>> Uh Senator, as I understand it, in terms of that modeling, that is exactly what the what it says it is modeling and that is done at the time and so there've been a number of changes to Brisbane airspace, as I'm sure you're familiar with, um since that modeling was undertaken. And clearly uh things have changed since then.
>> What assumptions did Air Services use regarding aircraft flight path dispersion when preparing its July 2025 environmental assessment and were those assumptions validated against historical radar data showing the actual distribution of aircraft movements, in particular over Tingalpa State School?
>> I can't answer that, Senator. I'll have to take it on notice.
>> Uh who's Do you have someone here who deals with your FOI applications? Who deals with your FOI applications?
>> sits in our legal team, though we don't, Senator.
>> Uh okay. Um I understand that an FOI application was lodged seeking access to the flight path dispersion assumptions underpinning Air Services aircraft noise I also
>> I'm aware of that, Senator.
>> You're aware of that?
>> Yes.
>> Did Air Services refuse to release that information citing confidentiality?
>> No, Senator, we did not refuse to release the information. It's correct that we haven't released it, but in fact that information was prepared by a third-party consultant who was engaged by Brisbane Airport Corporation and not by Air Services. So, what we did in accordance with our obligation under the FOI Act was to consult with that third party to understand whether they were prepared to release the information and they were not, which is why we haven't released it.
>> was the third party?
>> Air Biz, I believe.
>> Air Biz? >> Did they give you any reason as to why they weren't prepared to consent?
>> Uh I I'm unaware of that, Senator.
>> Oh, well, I'm going to make it easy for you. Um I'm going to ask you to table um that information, those assumptions, and any analysis or documents relating uh to those assumptions. So, if I can ask you to take that on notice.
>> We'll take it on notice, Senator.
>> Uh and you don't need to consult them What assessment has Air Services undertaken of the potential impacts on children's learning, concentration, and well-being from repeated aircraft noise events exceeding 70 decibels at Tingalpa State School?
>> Uh Senator, we're not a health agency and and that's not part of our remit. We haven't undertaken any specific health assessments about that kind of impact.
>> But I guess the the students can call your employee assistance program and obtain assistance uh with respect to the mental impact of their school being repeatedly flown over. Is that correct, Mr. Shaw?
no, that is not correct, Senator. Uh there will be situations where noise impacts on the community. and uh health has been raised on a number of occasions uh even with uh locations that are a fair way away from the airport. Uh but we're not a health organization. Uh so, we haven't uh done studies. Yeah, we haven't done studies into uh uh into that element of it. Uh, it's not in our remit. Uh, our remit is very specifically focused on the noise and the distribution of the noise.
>> Okay. Was the Tingalpa State School specifically considered in the July 2025 environmental assessment and were the actual noise monitoring results provided to the Department of Education Queensland education authorities?
>> And Senator, I wasn't employed in these services at the time, but what I can say is that in terms of environmental impact assessments and statements, all public facilities like schools are considered. They are
>> Well, could you take that particular question on notice, please? >> Was the July 2025 preliminary environmental impact assessment including its forecast aircraft noise contours provided to the Minister or the Department to inform decisions concerning Brisbane Airport?
>> I'll have to take that on
>> Take that on notice. What processes does Airservices have in place to ensure that aircraft noise modeling used to inform decisions under the EPBC Act and the Airports Act 1996 is validated against actual monitoring data?
>> I
>> You can take it on notice.
I've just got a quick