Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 1:56:49 to 2:09:54
Discussion on international air traffic controller recruitment, pass rates for new recruits, and the executive structure of Airservices Australia.
Topics: Public service staffing, Workplace culture
Speakers: Senator Bridget McKenzie, Peter Curran, Ms Jenny Messer, Rob Sharp, Ms Jacqui O'Dea, Senator Glenn Sterle, Speaker 21, Speaker 7, Speaker 9
how many international controllers have been hired in the last 3 years that did not get rated to operate here?
>> I'll pass to Mr. Curran.
>> Thank you, Senator. Just a moment. I'll see whether I've got that clarity, and if not, I might check with my colleague, Ms. Messer. Um >> Senator, I have uh that we have had 48 international air traffic controllers recruited in the last several years. I don't >> Yep. >> Uh but I don't have the uh the details of the pass or failure rate. Um Uh um Uh that's something I think we'd have to take on notice. Typically, when an international recruit um moves to Australia, uh if they were to go to a a location um and it and their first attempt not work out, we would look to understand where the deficiencies were in that particular location, and understand if we could find a better match for them prior to terminating their employment.
>> 48 international controllers, that's a big amount people power to help you do your job, and you don't know what the pass or fail is?
>> No, it's just that we haven't broken it down for that particular cohort on the data sets that I have here, unless Ms. Messer can provide that.
>> Ms. Messer, um thank you for the question, uh Senator. Jenny Messer, Chief People and Culture Officer. Um the data that I have averaged out, um international experience controllers, the pass rate is sitting around 85%.
>> 85%. So, of the 48, we should have
>> 85% of those have
>> Yeah. Is that the case?
again, to Mr. Curran's point, I haven't got the data in relation to over that those that period of time, um specifically by what location.
Uh that's incredible that you don't keep that type of um data.
>> Senator, we do um keep that data.
>> Well, you know that I they've got an 85% So, literally around 80 82 new air traffic controllers in from in as international air operators in the last couple of years. Is that
>> Um sorry, Senator. I'm actually just checking a couple of my data tables on that one.
>> Hang on. I'll just get my calculator out and do 0.85 * 48. It's not 48 a year, is it?
>> No, that's been over
>> 48 in total.
>> Yes, over the last couple of years, yes.
So, you've got 41 international Thank you, Senator Scarr. I do appreciate that. Thank you. And 0.33 recurring.
>> Based on those calculations, I would say yes. I'm not
>> So, are that Is that number included in the 95, Mr. Sharp?
>> The 95 are the total recruits for this calendar year.
>> Right. And how many of the 95 for this calendar year because you remember Air Services Australia was crowing you'd got 170, but it was 95. Of that 95, 41 are internationals. Is that correct?
>> The The 48 number, I think you were talking about the last 3 years. Is that correct?
>> Well, I don't think Mr. Curran was being specific as 3 years. I'd love to know how over how many years.
>> Correct, Senator. The Perhaps to assist, um the The 95 number is is the 95 pass rate. That's how many air traffic controllers into the Australian system this year we expect to pass. There will be a number of air traffic controllers who do trainees who do not pass. There will be ab initio's international, potentially ex-RAAF, ex-Air Services people returning from overseas.
>> So, of the 95 that you expect to pass, what proportion of those uh international operators?
>> I don't have that data uh to hand, but perhaps Ms. Mezic does, and if not, we can take it on notice, Senator.
>> And just to confirm, only seven failed. But the international controllers that have been hired
>> Yeah.
>> Yes, uh Senator, um Sydney Tower, um we've had some challenges with the pass rate there, uh and um and different cohorts have worked better than others as we've recruited internationally from different locations. Uh we we have in recent times been recruiting um a number of USA traffic controllers from particular, what they call the category 10 tower, one of their busier towers. That's tended to work quite quite well. Um in the Sydney terminal control unit, which is the the other part of the the the puzzle of Sydney air traffic control, is the airspace management as well as the aerodrome management Kingsford Smith, um we have a very good pass rate uh in the terminal control unit. So, Sydney Tower has been the challenge for us.
>> That is the understatement of the year. Um so, when what vetting was done when hiring international recruits? What happens?
>> Uh so, uh Senator, our um recruitment process includes screening selection, a range of psychometric tests um under the Shoreselect program consistent with um what Airways New Zealand also adopt, um and we also do um almost a comparative analysis in relation to their experience from their own ASP where they've come from um compared to the various locations that we're hiring into.
>> And do they come with their families?
>> Uh in most cases, yes. >> Yes. Relocate, yes.
>> Okay. So, of the >> 48 over three Sorry, just remind me the 48, not all of those were hired. Not all of those passed.
>> So, of that yes, so of that of the pass rate for those who did not pass, they would have returned back to their home country.
>> So, just tell me out of the 48 how many people actually were hired to stay on and
>> So, to the point of the pass rate of that 80% >> No, I don't I don't want to know the
pass rate. I want to know I want your evidence to how many people how many individuals are now on Air Services Australia's books from this program of international controllers?
>> Uh to Mr. Curran's point, we'll have to take that on notice and make sure that we furnish you with that specific
>> Cuz it's not 41, is it?
>> Well, based on the pass rates, that's what I'm advising you. However, to the point of looking at a three-year average of 48 internationals, I would like to be able to give you that detail and make sure it's confirmed.
>> Sorry, the 48 three-year average over the three years is 48. Or 48 per
>> The over the period of time, we're not saying 48 international recruits per year.
>> We'll take the time notice, too, Senator. I'm not I don't I can't confirm over the three years. Um 48's the number I've got. We'll take that on notice.
>> 48's the number you've got over what time frame, please, Mr. Curran?
>> That's the point I said I don't have a time frame, unfortunately, to give
>> What's that, 85%?
>> No, no, that's not uh the answer to the question, I think. Anyway, we'll see what the number is. What is the cost of recruiting international air traffic controllers to Australia who didn't get rated and had to go home?
>> Uh Senator, I can give you the total cost of recruitment for air traffic controllers, but in relation to the proportion of internationals that would need to return home, again, I'd need to take that on notice and specifically provide that.
>> Mr. Webster, as the chief financial officer, do you know the cost of recruiting um international air traffic controllers?
>> Uh thank you, Senator. I'm going to take the same position as my colleague. I will take that question on notice. The specific question you've asked is quite a detailed one, and I would rather get it correct.
>> And you don't have the line item there in front of you. What about the total recruitment? I imagine it would be a lot more expensive to recruit international air traffic. Do we pay for them to come over, or do they fund themselves?
>> Uh Senator, we pay to bring them over, to train them, and um relocation costs associated with
>> Okay, and their families?
>> And in cases, yes, their families, yeah.
>> And then if they don't pass, do we pay to send them home?
>> repatriate, um and then that's it.
>> Okay, so that is a lot more expensive than getting a local, so I find it incredible that you're at Senate estimates and don't have that level of detail.
>> Um on the internationals, um no, but in in relation to our broader um resourcing and numbers for ATCs, we do, and particularly um some of those figures in relation to some locations, but the international ones are not on hand.
>> So, what's your global recruitment figure? And it would include the the bringing out It does include the costs for bringing out international air traffic controllers, training them, and if necessary, uh repatriating them. What is your recruitment?
>> So, as Senator to Mr. Webster's comment, I would rather get that information for
>> told me you had that number.
>> it generally. The recruitment cost generally for um ATC recruitment is $2 million, um but of that, I can't break that down in relation to what proportion of that is for the
>> Um in what circumstances can 737 aircraft fly below the minimum safe altitude in Canberra?
>> Mr. Curran.
>> Senator, um uh there isn't a circumstance in which that should normally happen in the normal course of events. In an emergency, these sorts of things can arise, but not normally.
>> So, uh I Are you aware of any such instances in Canberra?
>> Senator, I'm I'm aware of a recent uh occurrence in Canberra when there was a um a non-normal approach. Uh I don't have the
>> Non-normal approach.
>> A non-normal approach uh involving an arrival and the aircraft was held temporarily as I understand it and the altitude was below the minimum safe altitude.
>> And what was the date of that incident?
>> Senator, I have to take that on notice. It was in the last month.
>> Had there been any recent changes to Air Services Australia's executive
>> Uh Senator, the uh structure pleasingly has been stable. The executive team was restructured about 18 months ago. Uh the fact uh the youngest now would be over 12 months. So, we've had a stable executive team for the last 12 months.
>> I think that's part of the problem, Mr. Sharp, is the incredible stability which saw the previous CEO there for a very long time.
>> Uh Senator, we did a
>> And the cultural issues associated with that.
>> There was a major transformation initiative that we implemented 18 months ago. Quite a large turnover of staff occurred at the senior leadership level. Uh, we brought capability in to match the, uh, challenges that Air Services facing. And over the last 12 months, that's been a stable team, uh, where we're enhancing that capability further. So, it is pleasing, uh, that that has been, uh, in place and is stable.
>> Um, it's my understanding that Air Services Australian operational staff have participated in a staff survey, uh, in a safety survey. Is that correct?
>> Uh, that is correct. Uh, we've had uh, a recent safety survey.
>> And when will that be released to the public or to the staff?
>> Uh, the results have been released to the staff, uh, last month, I believe,
>> Uh, yes, Jackie O'Day, Chief Environment and Noise Officer, Senator. Um, we released a summary of the results to our staff last month in relation to the safety survey.
>> And will those be released publicly?
>> Uh, there's no intention to release them publicly at the moment, Senator. Well,
I'll ask that you, um, table them to this committee, please.
>> Happy to do that.
Chair. >> Yeah.
>> I see Ms. Chewbidge.
>> Um, I know I have questions of CASA.
Sorry. Well, I have you here as Air Services. No worries. Ms. Henderson.