Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 4:57:18 to 5:03:01
A debate occurs regarding the difficulty of categorizing 'green jobs' and the use of ABS and Treasury data to measure the structural shift to net zero.
Topics: Climate change, Employment
Speakers: Susan McDonald, Hon Tim Ayres, Mr Mike Kaiser, Varun Ghosh, Unknown Speaker
things. Um, I know others do. >> Uh, keep this shorter, please, Minister. The issue is not, so I'm an accountant by trade. >> If you can't manage it, you can't measure it. It's a bit of an age-old, you know, catch cry. This is a a a government that is driving the economy towards a new style of job and and uh structural changes to our economy. But I'm seeking to find who is tracking this, who is measuring this, who can give me any data at all. Because in the absence of that then you can't measure >> you can't measure it and you also can't assert it without data to support
>> what you think four I think somebody will correct me if I'm wrong 1.4 million new jobs >> wages wages gone up >> um and uh a collective bargaining stronger that measuring >> well that's that's that's Treasury those answers right there 1.4 4 million new jobs being delivered under this government. Um, you can't categorize a job as a a green job or not a green job. Like I I don't know. I I I have no idea what those categories mean.
>> You can categorize a fossil job.
>> Well,
>> so what I'm trying to seek to understand
there is
>> No, no, please Minister, let me finish because this is a very dry and boring who in the government and and if this department's responsibility is to support the transition of Australia's economy to net zero emissions by 2050, if you're not measuring the the type of job, where it is, how many there are, what the average salary is, so that we can start measuring well, are we better or worse off compared to jobs in the And just before you break in before as opposed to jobs in coal, in gas, in industrial existing industrial jobs. Then how can we have a sensible policy discussion about whether or not that's good or bad?
>> I guess I mean I'm not sure that that's a question that is capable of being answered. That that the only way I can think to answer that question is if we if we pretended that the global economy isn't changing, right? If we if we um if we kind of did what happened for the last decade before we're elected, well, their disaster lies.
>> No, their disaster lies. >> You don't know. Boring. This is a very boring question. There are accountants around this room going, "She's actually making a good point.
>> You're the one who was telling me not to interrupt you, and you've just come right over the top of my answer.
>> But the chair is about to cut me off for time, and I'm not interested in what
process of you just right now answering asking long questions and then we just let you move the next one. We actually get to answer them.
>> No, but
>> even if it is inconvenient.
>> It's not inconvenient. Even if it is
>> senators, senators, >> let's just return to the orderly way we do this. Minister, if you'll answer the question.
>> Our job is to grow the real economy to to act in a way that is consistent with what what is going on in the global economy. >> So so so we know that we know that demand for >> We know that certain demand for certain goods is going to decline over time. We know that, >> right? It's not it's not the government doing that. >> I need numbers. It's we we know that that is going to happen. So what so so our job >> is to grow the industry is to grow industry more broadly and that is what we're setting about doing. There's been enormous jobs growth >> uh over the last four years. There's been significant wages growth. There's been significant new small business formation. There's been significant new manufacturing investment. Investment in planting capital is at an all-time high. >> Um so we are getting on with it. The ABS the ABS does all the data work that you'd want to do and you're welcome to
talk to them. So, Mr. Kaiser, please let me just finish on this point. Chair, Mr. Kaiser, if your department can can um measure and map emissions, jobs, salaries from the fossil fuel sector. I'm just seeking to understand if you're doing any work at all. And if the answer is you're not, then that's the answer. Inconvenient as it may be in the minister's terminology, if you're not doing any any work on measuring the number of jobs and salaries in renewables, in hydro in these in critical minerals um because you must be tracking the emissions for those industries. Then I'm just seeking to understand who is that's all
>> the Australian Bureau of Statistics,
>> the Department of the Bureau. So, so this department's um climate change uh um mapping part of the department policy area is not having any data into that. You're just pulling it straight out of here.
>> We wouldn't seek to unnecessarily duplicate the work of the Australian Bureau of Statistics.
>> Well, well, thank you. >> Then on notice, how many agencies are there with and I keep using agencies, I know it's not the right term. How many policy sections are there within the department of environment? Who is doing work on modeling, climate change, new economy, this this transition piece that is the responsibility of the department?