Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 5:34:27 to 5:51:14
Integrity of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan and the environmental legacy of the Ok Tedi mine in Papua New Guinea.
Topics: Human rights, Government spending, Papua New Guinea
Speakers: Malcolm Roberts, Hon Penny Wong, Sarah Storey, Paul Griffiths, Dr Justin Lee, Raff Ciccone
>> Thanks, Senator. Now, Senator Roberts.
>> Thank you, Chair. I've got three topics to cover, and they're fairly quick, I hope. >> Does Australia still contribute funds to
Uh, Senator, our our funding to um to Palestine, our program in in Palestine uh goes to um ENRA, to UNICEF, to the UNFPA, UNDP, the UN Office of Project Services and there's some other programs like Australia Awards and those kinds of funds as well. Um, and there's a there's a regional programming smaller amount.
>> So, we don't pay money directly to the Palestinian Authority, >> but it it can get to the Palestinian Authority through the through those other agencies.
>> That's correct. So, for example, um Senator, our funding to the UNDP, some of that um under a T3 program, I think it's called, is is assisting with um electoral development with the with the preparations for local elections, for example, which fits in with the Palestinian Authorities's commitments for reform. Um so, the U the UN agencies are um assisting uh assisting with those
projects. Do you have any uh any way of finding out how much they each paid to the Palestinian Authority?
>> Uh I'd have to take that on notice, Senator.
>> If if you could please and could you tell me how much Australia has paid to the Palestinian Authority indirectly through those other agencies in the last
>> Certainly, sir.
>> Thank you. Does the Palis Palestinian Authority still contribute to the Martis
>> to the Martis Fund? >> Uh no, Senator. So, as part of um as part of President Abbas's um commitments to reform the Palestinian Authority, um sorry, I just need to find my uh my notes on this so I've got giving you the One of those one of those commitments was around on in relation to the social payments reform program. Uh the PA has revoked laws and regulations related to that system um of prisoners, martyrs and the wounded. Um so under the new laws they've they've broadened out uh their social welfare assistance. So it's unrelated to um what it previously was in relation to prisoners, martyrs, and the wounded.
>> Thank you. Does Australia contribute in any way to funds that find their way into the hands of the families of deceased marts ter deceased terrorists?
No, Senator, I don't believe so. I mean, we we've got we've very active in our um our funding allocations and our um our strategic partnership framework has a number of um safeguards and the like in place um that are related to counterterrorism, a range of safeguards, counterterrorism funding and um and fraud and the like. Um so we're very specific in our funding that uh to to exercise those you know funding directed funding going in that direction.
>> Thank you. Next question. Uh next set of questions is about Afghan support at a time when Australian families are finding it very hard to pay vital bills and put food on the table. Why is this Labor government given $50 million to Afghanistan which is controlled by the
>> Senator, I'd really ask I've seen some misinformation in the public sphere about this uh and I'm very happy for others to explain uh the uh support we are providing uh particularly to women and girls.
>> Thank you Minister. Um Senator, thank you for the question. Sarah Storey, first Asia Division. Um we're aware of reports and concerns in the community around the is actually um 310 million since the fall of Kabul including the ministers ministers Wong and Ali recent announcement of 50 million on the 29th of January. This has a particular focus on meeting the needs of women and girls and on nutrition, health care and protection assistance. Particularly, we work with established partners such as UN agencies to ensure that our support reaches those most in need. And uh we work with longstanding partners, Senator, to ensure our aid supports those most in need incl uh so in other words does not go to the Taliban. Um the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan has t uh stated that it takes extremely seriously any allegations of malpractice and corruption and ensures these are promptly investigated.
>> Who would accuse the UN of corruption? The U the violent government, the Taliban government, which is violent, oppresses women, sells and sells the grain, we're told, given to them by charities and makes the local men work in return for grain that was donated by governments from the West. The Taliban are not our friends. I'm sure you agree. Ask any soldier who served there what he or she thinks about this. The Taliban government is corrupt and most foreign aid is stolen apparently, so it's reported and not passed on to those in need. So you rely upon the UN and other agencies to make sure that our aid reaches the right spot.
>> That's right, Senator.
>> How confident are you?
>> Uh Senator, we um I can take that on notice to provide you with more extensive detail. Um but uh we do not regard I just need to um reiterate we do not regard the Taliban as legitimate representatives of the people of Afghanistan. Um and I would note that we consider that there is while there are some who have this view, there are also many who express strong support, Senator um in uh for the provision of humanitarian support to the people of Afghanistan um because of the very dire and deteriorating humanitarian situation in the country.
>> Can I could I just add to that, Senator, please? Um uh uh first, the situation in Afghanistan is dire. You're right. The Taliban is not our friend which is why we have been so clear about our view in relation to the Taliban and also why we have taken action um a world first sanctions framework the imposition of financial sanctions on senior Taliban so-called ministers uh for their involvement in the impression of women and girls. Uh so we are very clear we do not recognize uh the Taliban. Uh and you're right, it's a the you have had previously to alter our provision of aid and discontinue programs for this for the sorts of reasons you have outlined. Uh what the department has sought to do is to recognize um uh the the both the dye but also how is it through other partners that we um um can provide assistance uh to uh people who who need it. uh so um whose need is so great uh and independent reporting and reg regular donor engagement such as has been described are in place to confirm that our UN partners are delivering aid effectively accountably and in line with humanitarian principles. Um, we used to
>> they're going to get it to
>> we we we used to fund was it care >> I have a photo in my office actually of two girls walking to school which was taken by um an Afghan uh man who I met uh at an event where we uh had to um yeah talk about what we done and show what we've done to particularly for women and girls, but we had to discontinue the program for the very reasons you outlined. Um, but we're seeking to provide some assistance um with the sorts of um protections uh that the department has outlined.
>> Thank you. And you're going to provide me reassurance on on notice?
>> Uh yes, Senator,
>> that the money is getting to the right
place. The minister noted that independent um reporting and regular donor engagement that does confirm um the partners are delivering effectively. Uh so we can provide you with a little more information on that certainly.
>> Thank you. How much has the government given to Afghanistan since 2021? Is it 310 million or more?
>> Yes, Senator. It's 310 million in total that's committed and provided. That includes the most recent announcement of
the 50 million. Thank you. I mean, I ask these questions because some of our constituents are pretty upset with Australia doing things pretty tough at the moment, but the Taliban is is doing it even people in in Afghanistan are
>> Yes, Senator, if I could just add um almost the ent uh the same size as the Australian population, 22 million in um Afghanistan is assessed to be in dire humanitarian need. So I know that this is a balance that we we must take.
>> Just on the spirit of the moment, Minister, the thought comes to me that Iraq, our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan was based on the U so-called evidence of weapons of mass destruction from England, America under Bush and John Howard in Australia. And then we were told by all three leaders in their nations that there was never any evidence. We've gone into those countries, jeopardized our own people, boys and girls, and we've created a mess, and now we've got more more of a mess. Is there any thought to stopping the mess in the first place? Making sure that we only enter conflicts where there's justification.
>> There's a lot in that question, Roberts. Um,
>> well, it's a simple answer. Yes or no,
really. Uh and you know historically you might recall the position the then Labor opposition had in relation to um the Iraq war. Um uh so I'm not sure this is a I can do your question um justice in terms of a full and comprehensive answer but I I think it is I think two points. one is um committing Australian men and women to conflict is the most serious decision a government can make.
>> Yep.
>> Uh and it should be uh it is a decision that should be made soberly. uh and
>> with facts facts
>> on the basis of facts a very clear assessment of our national interests because >> um you know it is the grave it is the most serious decision and weighty decision a government can make. The second point is you know we cannot assure stability uh in other countries from where we are. We can contribute to it. Uh but obviously ultimately peace and stability require uh many elements uh in country and in the region. uh uh but it is a reminder of why whether it is uh in the Middle East particularly or more broadly we we keep as our uh objective contribution to peace and stability.
>> Yeah. And it it it boggles my mind that um as far as I know and from reports through the media, no one in the parliament has questioned uh the the original decision to go in into Iraq and Afghanistan. Help people accountable. Uh last last set of questions, chair um this is in about Papa New Guinea. How much aid actually flowed to assist people under the Octetti treaty
Well, Senator, sorry. Can I just take issue with what you said previously? You said that no one had taken issue with it. The Labour Party in 2003 strongly opposed Australians involvement and I think history has I think a made that in in with the benefit of hindsight that decision uh was clearly um I think the correct one. Sorry.
>> Has anyone has anyone held the
>> Well,
>> well, let's leave it for another day.
>> Yeah, leave that for another day. Sorry, the question was Octetti.
>> Yeah. A disaster of significant proportion occurred in New Guinea in 1984 when an Octetti mining tailings dam failed and now releases 80 million tons of toxic poison into the Fly River per year. The Australian Papa Newu Guinea Western Province Strategy 2022 promised millions of dollars of aid to local people affected by the poisoning of the land and the river. How much aid is actually flown flowed to assist the
>> Uh thank you, Senator Justin Lee, first assistant secretary uh of the Melanesia division. Um the the history of the Octetti mine clearly was a matter for the uh parties that were involved in that uh at at the time. Uh there were commercial entities that were involved in that. Um for Australia though and the Australian government um we continue to appreciate uh the significant development needs in Papa Newu Guini uh including in Western province uh where the uh Octetti mine uh is based and continues to operate. It continues to operate as a a mine owned by the Papuini government and by the local land owners. Uh and so we continue to have a program um of development in Western Province and under the Western Province partnership uh we've committed uh 52.5 million um over three and a half years for a range of development activities there and that's part of ongoing development that we've provided to Western Province um over many many years.
>> Thank you. Are you aware of the growing civil unrest because the aid has not yet significantly been distributed? There lots of question marks about that.
>> Uh senator, I'm not aware of specific incidents of uh uh civil unrest there.
>> Are you aware of the growing number of deaths apparently from the market gardens of those people being poisoned by heavy metals from Mock Teddy mine? And it was an Australian mine largely BHP that that uh owned it when the tailings stand failed.
Yes, as I say, Senator, that mine continues to operate and it's now uh run by the government of Papu Guini um and uh Western Province, the Western Province government. Uh and so those issues should really be referred to
>> Could you tell me um or just confirm on notice uh whether or not there is unrest there? That's what I'm advised. And could you tell me when a aid will flow to those people in a meaningful way?
we can take on notice uh uh any further situation of unrest that might be occurring in Western province.
>> Thank you. I'm from the mining industry and and everything comes out of the ground either through agriculture or mines or the ocean, but uh we're not in favor of mines that that walk away from
>> Thank you, chair. Thanks a lot, Senator. Okay, now uh Senator Henderson, I'll