Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 7:15:45 to 7:24:50
The hearing concludes with concerns about the security of ADF personnel in a public building, including surveillance risks in the lobby, foreign ownership of the facility, and the application of new security zone legislation.
Topics: National security, Public safety, Privacy
Speakers: Senator Jessica Collins, Meghan Quinn, Celia Perkins, Unknown Speaker, Raff Ciccone, James Paterson
>> Senator, car parking um uh is certainly an issue. Uh our people at uh Victoria Back Sydney have raised in the change process so far. Uh certainly one of the benefits of many defense sites is car parking, but it is by no means a common uh condition. It's certainly not a condition of service and in many sites we either don't have car parking or we have paid car parking. So we'll talk to staff about their options around that uh and modes of transport to get to work and that will be part of the change process.
>> Have you given any advice or previously at any other base given advice to serving personnel about arriving to work >> Is there any security advice that you would give to personnel or perhaps for the chiefs? Is there advice that you would give about arriving to work in in uniform and on public transport? Is there any kind of security advice you'd give to that?
>> Senator, at various points as security uh threat levels have changed, historically that has been a case. There are no current directions for our people around wearing uniform to work.
>> So they would they would be okay to arrive in the middle of the city every
as I said, as security threat levels change, um, we have the capacity to to to make directions. Our current security threat levels and our very close work, uh, with AIO wouldn't, uh, give us an indication that that would be currently necessary.
>> Okay. So, uh, is there a fallback option? If for example uh we entered a conflict tonight or the threat level changed tonight, what would be the advice to all the personnel going to uh defense plaza Sydney where there's only a public transport option and yet they all had to go and fight for a desk, fight for a terminal. What's going to happen? How what what's the security that you would have?
>> Senator, I just want to clarify you the characterization of fighting for a desk and fighting for a terminal.
>> Well, it's an 8 to10 ratio, Secretary.
It is an 8 to10 ratio and uh and clearly as uh as we move through um elements of the security arrangements we would have mitigation strategies in place.
>> What would they be?
>> Some of that would be if there was a operational need for people to be in certain locations uh and there were other people with lower need in that location, they would be moved off rather than the operators.
>> So you're saying in a in a conflict certain personnel will become redundant. Is that what you're trying to say?
Forc's command. What I'm saying it's it so defense force plaza will have people in it um as it does now that that are not forces command. Uh we would and we have plans in place for this. If our threat level changed if we were in conflict we would rep prioritizing quite a lot of our activity. Um and through that rep prioritization we would have mitigations in place. We would also have have mitigations in place uh for our personnel serving uh in Australia and overseas. So in a conflict we would apply the operating procedures and the cons and the overlaying uh architecture that we have now whether people are at Ramwick or whether they're at Victoria
ask a clarifying question there, chair? In a conflict scenario, hopefully we
>> So, we it depends on the facility you're talking about, Senator. Uh and so some some areas will have more, some will have less. We'll have prioritization arrangements. Uh, and that is all part of the planning that we would be doing. >> So, we have um a thousand uh locations around the country, 70 bases. Uh, and so if we if we were in conflict, all the current locations would shift as well. Uh and we would also have people pri we would be prioritizing the war fighting capability of both the ADF clearly and the public service. Um we would also be drawing on uh capability as you say through reser but also across other industry and private things. We we would have we have plans in place to kind of deal with that issue. Uh it is an issue now and it'll be an issue subsequent to the uh change in location. One of the reasons for doing the disinvestment uh process is to invest in new bases and new capabilities that will be central to the defense of Australia.
>> We're building new bases.
>> Well, adding to bases.
>> No, hang on. You just said there were going to be new bases. Where are the new
>> So, this is about reinvesting in our northern bases,
>> right? But they're existing bases. So
that I corrected and said existing expansion, but the intention is that we will have more people stationed in the north of Australia than we do in the south of Australia. We'll have them in different locations as we move capability around the country. Okay. >> So it's not the case that we've got static uh locations of people. We're already moving. We've got more people in Western Australia now uh than we did uh 3 years ago.
>> Thanks, Jeff. We do need a break. Um c
>> can I just finish that off, please? and then I' I've still got more to go, but um if I'd finish that line of questioning, you can come back to me after you do the share the call, but I've still got stuff to go.
>> I appreciate that, but we do have a time that we need to get to, but I'll give you a few more minutes and then we'll we'll break for um afternoon tea. I
>> one question and then I'll go for afternoon tea. It's just related to the security question. >> Miss Perkins, I've seen a quote from you about wanting to protect the identities of uh your staff. Uh, Defense Plaza Sydney is a public building. There will be a public lobby. There'll be cameras. There's who knows which private companies that are on, you know, the 3/4 of levels that aren't occupied by the Australian Defense Force. Uh, we've got a Singaporean company that owns the building. We've got a Chinese bank that holds the mortgage over it. Uh so who knows where the security footage from that lobby or who's loitering in the lobby waiting around pretending they've got a meeting following who's going in, Uh so what security measures are you putting in place to protect the identity of our serving personnel that are going in and out of defense class Sydney?
Senator, I'm not um at all clear on what um quote you may have seen from
>> Well, I can read it out to you if you like. It's just part of your As senior leaders in defense, we actively discourage security clearance holders from holding a social media presence that identifies us and our roles.
>> Oh, so that's specifically about being identifiable on social media.
>> Yes. But I mean these are real people. I mean surely it's more dangerous to be identifiable as a person going in it following your routine where you go for coffee. There's lots of coffee shops around there. What time you arrive, what
time you leave, >> if I um it's a slightly longer uh point, but um fundamentally um digital and online security.
>> I'm not worried about the online
>> Sorry, just let the official please answer the question.
>> Senator, the security cameras and the
security of the lobby and entering and
exiting the building.
>> Deputy Chair, I appreciate that, but let Senate Miss Perkins please at least provide an answer before you ask.
Senator, I would um disagregate that quote which um very specifically relates to digital and and online security and um what we know and understand to be particularly the foreign intelligence activity that occurs online. So it's quite a different vector. Um uh I can say a couple things about um protective and physical security uh at Defense Plaza Sydney. And just the broader point I think that all of us um uh in government and in national security of course live and work in the community. Um Victoria Barrack Sydney is in a you know a busy shopping strip uh in Oxford Street. Um many of our sites are in commercial office uh facilities. Many ADF members already work at Defense Plaza Sydney. I saw many of them last week. um on uh the uh floors that defense operates. We of course install our own security fit out that is
>> I'm not worried about our force. I'm worried about the public areas. I'm worried about the lobby. I'm worried about the entry and exit. Uh you know, as you can appreciate the defense force in the bases like Victoria Barracks that yes, sure it's in the metropolitan center and yes, there are cafes on the other side of it, but it is very heavily protected. It's a base. It's an operational base. Now, we've got a bill coming. You the government has a bill coming through in the next couple of weeks. It's just been through the house talking about protected zones around these military bases. Are we going to be able to do that for defense plaza city? Probably not, cuz it's smack bang in the middle of the central businesses.
>> Absolutely. The uh intent of the new legislation introduced this week uh and the creation of security zones would would be able to be applied to a facility like Defense Plaza Sydney.