Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee

Senate Estimates hearing, 26 Oct 2026

Searchable transcript of the Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, 26 Oct 2026 Senate Estimates hearing, with chapters: Opening Statements and Tributes to Dr. Helen Haines, Retirement Announcement of the Clerk of the Senate, Procedural Rules for Questions on Notice,…

Chapters

Opening Statements and Tributes to Dr. Helen Haines (0:09)
The committee opens with procedural acknowledgments and pays tribute to Dr. Helen Haines following a recent attack, emphasizing her integrity and contribution to parliament.
Retirement Announcement of the Clerk of the Senate (5:16)
Clerk of the Senate Richard Pye announces his upcoming retirement after 35 years of service, receiving tributes from the President and Senators for his leadership and constitutional knowledge.
Procedural Rules for Questions on Notice (12:38)
Senator Hume questions the Clerk regarding the procedural differences, limitations, and relevance of verbal versus written questions on notice during estimates proceedings.
Senate Training Seminars and Fee Structure (19:14)
The Department of the Senate discusses its practice of charging fees for parliamentary training seminars and legislative process workshops provided to public servants.
Recruitment Process for the New Senate Clerk (20:52)
Officials outline the recruitment process, selection panel composition, and timeline for appointing the next Clerk of the Senate following the advertisement of the role.
Accuracy of Senate StatsNet Question Tracking (26:08)
Senator Payman raises concerns about the accuracy of the Senate StatsNet website in tracking the timeliness of question responses and identifies potential technical issues.
Tabling of Department of Senate Annual Report (30:04)
Senator McGrath queries the timing and administrative delays associated with the finalization and tabling of the Department of the Senate's annual report.
Workload and Funding for Legislative Drafting Services (34:10)
The committee examines the workload, staffing levels, and funding requests for the Senate's non-government legislative drafting services amid fluctuating demand.
Advice for non-government senators (44:57)
The Clerk provides guidance on how senators can better support the drafting team by providing early notice of requests to manage the legislative program.
Senate committee activity levels (46:10)
A review of the current volume of Senate committee inquiries, reports, and hearings compared to previous years, noting a slight retreat from recent peaks.
Committee secretariat staffing and vacancies (48:47)
Discussion on current vacancies within the committee secretariats, specifically in the legislative scrutiny unit, and the status of recruitment efforts.
Committee adjournment and scheduling (49:16)
The Chair adjourns the hearing for a break and provides an update on the progress of the day's agenda and upcoming department appearances.
Parliamentary Privilege and Executive Search Warrants (1:30:02)
Discussion on the application of parliamentary privilege regarding executive search warrants and the protection of senators' materials under resolution 38A.
Witness Testimony and Social Media Conduct (1:39:31)
Examination of witness rights regarding the publication of testimony and the impact of social media clips and online commentary on public servants.
Senate Department Financial Position and Deficit (1:45:03)
Review of the Senate Department's financial position, including an operating deficit, leave liabilities, and high demand for legislative drafting services.
Parliamentary Education Office Funding and Outreach (1:51:09)
Inquiry into funding for the Parliamentary Education Office to expand online and physical outreach programs for civics education in remote regions.
Farewell and Retirement of the Clerk (1:57:48)
The committee pays tribute to the Clerk of the Senate on his final estimates appearance before his upcoming retirement.
Parliamentary Budget Office Workload and Performance (1:58:31)
The Parliamentary Budget Office presents its annual report, noting a significant increase in demand for costing services and high staff engagement.
PBO Relocation and Asset Write-Off Costs (2:04:07)
Details regarding the PBO's relocation to West Block and the associated $1 million asset write-off for infrastructure left behind at Parliament House.
PBO Funding and Policy Costing Delays (2:08:04)
The PBO addresses increased demand for policy costings, unsuccessful funding bids, and the impact of resourcing on performance targets.
DPS Privileges Report and Data Principles (2:13:02)
The Department of Parliamentary Services outlines progress on the 189th Privileges Report recommendations and draft principles for protecting parliamentarian data.
DPS Privilege Training and Cyber Security (2:22:38)
DPS details mandatory parliamentary privilege training for staff and the commencement of the Parliamentary Information and Cyber Resilience program.
ANAO Cyber Security Audit Findings (2:28:57)
Examination of the ANAO audit into DPS cyber security, focusing on 'partly effective' findings and the accuracy of maturity level assessments.
Parliamentary Library Research and IT Support (2:34:18)
Senator Payman queries access to historical library research requests and IT configuration issues following a suite relocation.
DPS Commercial Revenue and Training Fees (2:42:39)
DPS explains commercial revenue growth from events and addresses concerns regarding fees for parliamentary training programs run by the House.
Cyber Security Audit and Network Reform (2:46:26)
The committee reviews an ANAO report on cyber security, focusing on inaccurate previous self-assessments, funding for the PICKER program, and the segmentation of the parliamentary computer network to improve accountability.
Landscaping and Device Security Measures (2:52:29)
After acknowledging the work of the landscaping team, the discussion shifts to cyber security risks associated with public Wi-Fi and the non-provision of SIM cards for parliamentary iPads and laptops.
Remote Committee Broadcast Services (2:58:05)
Senators inquire about the availability and cost of video broadcast kits for remote committee hearings and the technical difficulties in integrating feeds from state parliament broadcast systems.
Cyber Security Staffing and Governance (3:06:29)
The committee examines high staff turnover within the cyber security branch and the implementation of a centralized risk assessment register to address historical gaps identified by the ANAO.
Website Functionality and Access Fees (3:10:29)
Discussion covers changes to the parliamentary website requiring user registration for bulk downloads and the introduction of a $140 fee for commercial lobbyists to obtain Parliament House access passes.
Library Redevelopment and Workplace Culture (3:19:42)
Officials provide the final costs and delay details for the Parliamentary Library redevelopment, followed by questions regarding the President's response to allegations of racism within the workplace.
Addressing Racism and Standing Orders in the Senate (3:24:13)
Senator Thorpe questions the President on handling racism in the chamber and the transparency of correspondence involving other senators named in complaints.
Construction Timeline for New Senate Suites (3:35:08)
An update on the 11 new Senate suites, with completion dates pushed to 2027 due to design changes and accessibility requirements within the $14.77 million budget.
Parliamentary Library Research and ASIC Search Services (3:40:34)
The Parliamentary Librarian clarifies the reinstatement of ASIC search services and discusses the ongoing review of client services and access to paywalled reports.
NIAA Opening Statement on Workplace Conduct (3:55:07)
Minister McCarthy acknowledges traditional owners and addresses concerns regarding respectful behavior in Parliament and the impact of domestic violence on First Nations families.
Indigenous Affairs Policy and Closing the Gap (3:57:54)
The Minister discusses the government's focus on the National Agreement on Closing the Gap as the primary policy framework following the Voice referendum.
NIAA Annual Report and Voice Commitment (4:00:01)
Minister McCarthy reaffirms the government's commitment to the principles of the Uluru Statement from the Heart following the Voice referendum, while the NIAA tables its annual report for parliamentary review.
Impact of AI on Agency Complaint Mechanisms (4:05:36)
NIAA executives discuss the proliferation of AI-generated complaints, which increase the administrative burden on integrity teams by requiring more time to analyze lengthy, automated text for genuine issues.
Tracking Total Expenditure on Indigenous Affairs (4:07:23)
Senators question the NIAA on the lack of a comprehensive figure for total government spending on Indigenous programs across all portfolios, highlighting difficulties in mapping expenditure outside of targeted budget fact sheets.
Legal Challenges to Mount Isa Housing (4:11:25)
The NIAA explains the legal inability to prevent the sale of Aboriginal housing in Mount Isa by the local council, noting that Queensland legislation overrode existing caveats intended to protect the properties.
Support for Displaced Mount Isa Tenants (4:15:18)
Officials discuss the impact of housing sales on families and elders in Mount Isa, detailing efforts to find alternative accommodation and the complications arising from social housing eligibility and organizational liquidation.
Closure of the Yissa Facility in Darwin (4:20:39)
Minister McCarthy explains the breakdown in negotiations between the Northern Territory government and a private provider, which led to the closure of the 400-bed Yissa housing facility despite a Commonwealth offer to purchase it.
Closing the Gap and Funding Accountability (4:24:46)
Minister McCarthy addresses the Northern Territory's failure to meet Closing the Gap values regarding the Yissa facility and discusses potential reforms to federal funding agreements to ensure state and territory compliance.
Audio Verification and Technical Microphone Checks (4:44:15)
Brief audio checks and microphone testing are conducted during the recess to ensure clarity for upcoming witness testimony and committee questions.
Intermission and Preparation for Further Testimony (4:47:30)
A brief intermission occurs as the committee prepares for the next round of witness testimony and organizes relevant documentation.
Extended Recess for Private Committee Deliberation (4:50:25)
The hearing remains suspended for an extended period to allow for private committee deliberations and administrative transitions between sessions.
Mid-Afternoon Break in Formal Committee Proceedings (5:01:18)
A mid-afternoon break is observed, with music playing while the committee members and staff are away from the hearing room.
Temporary Adjournment of the Public Hearing (5:07:49)
The public hearing is temporarily adjourned, with a scheduled resumption expected shortly following the conclusion of the current break.
Scheduled Suspension of the Committee Business (5:16:12)
Formal business is suspended according to the committee schedule, allowing for a transition between different segments of the hearing.
Final Intermission Before Resuming Hearing Business (5:16:12)
The final intermission period concludes as the committee prepares to resume the formal hearing process and call the next witness.
Committee Correspondence and Procedural Matters (5:28:47)
The committee resumes with the National Indigenous Australians Agency (NIAA), addressing tabled correspondence regarding comments made by the President. Senator Thorpe raises concerns about the accuracy of statements made earlier in the day.
Remote Jobs Program Administration Costs (5:30:15)
Senator Little questions the NIAA on the funding breakdown for the Remote Jobs Program, specifically focusing on the $102 million allocated for administration and $25 million for evaluation and communication over the life of the program.
Northern Territory Partnership Agreement Funding (5:39:27)
The NIAA discusses adjustments to the Northern Territory Partnership (NTI) Agreement, including new accountability frameworks, micro-payments for delivery, and direct funding pathways for community-controlled organizations.
Funding Inquiry for Burketown Pub (5:46:18)
Senator Thorpe inquires about a grant application by Mongibi Limited to operate the Burketown Pub. The NIAA takes the specific details of the funding and the organization's eligibility on notice.
Addressing Black Cladding in Procurement (5:48:21)
The agency discusses reforms to the Indigenous Procurement Policy (IPP) to combat 'black cladding.' Key changes include increasing the ownership and control threshold to 51% and collaborating with regulators to identify fraudulent business structures.
Salary Structures for Agency Staff (5:54:16)
Senator Roberts questions whether Aboriginal appointees receive a salary premium. The NIAA clarifies that all salaries are determined by standard APS rules and regulations with no heritage-based pay differences.
Stolen Wages Settlement and Administration (5:56:49)
Senator Pocock raises concerns regarding the administration of the stolen wages class action settlement in the Northern Territory. The NIAA discusses the role of the Federal Court, Shine Lawyers, and Deloitte in the process.
First Nations Leadership in Public Service (6:02:44)
The committee examines the retention of First Nations leaders in senior government roles following several high-profile resignations. The NIAA outlines monitoring efforts and initiatives like the SES 100 to increase representation.
First Nations Leadership and APS Racism (6:02:44)
Examination of First Nations leadership within the Australian Public Service, monitoring resignations, and addressing systemic racism.
Child Protection Crisis in Port Hedland (6:10:46)
Inquiry into the child protection crisis in Port Hedland and the role of the newly established National Children's Commissioner.
Integrity and Safety in Funded Organizations (6:14:32)
Oversight of integrity issues at Giuliardi and Tangentyere Council, including board eligibility and community safety priorities in town camps.
NTAI Agreement and Community-Controlled Funding (6:21:22)
Review of the Northern Territory Aboriginal Investment (NTAI) agreement and the redistribution of funding to community-controlled organizations.
Port Hedland Leadership and Food Security (6:29:26)
Further discussion on Port Hedland, focusing on food security, affordability, and the need for jurisdictional leadership in addressing social issues.
Workplace Culture and Colonial Loading Payments (6:37:36)
Questions regarding 'Colonial Loading' payments at community legal services and universities, and the use of Commonwealth funding for such conditions.
Youth Justice and Incarceration in NT (6:41:21)
Debate over youth justice in the Northern Territory, the use of spit hoods, and the impact of incarceration on First Nations youth.
Funding levers and direct community support (6:47:26)
The committee discusses using Commonwealth funding levers to bypass state and territory governments and provide direct support to Aboriginal organizations for housing and disaster relief.
Central Land Council on regional poverty (6:54:32)
The Central Land Council delivers an opening statement highlighting the impact of grinding poverty, high living costs, and inadequate infrastructure on remote communities in Central Australia.
Anindilyakwa Land Council on community control (6:58:50)
The Anindilyakwa Land Council discusses mine closure planning, local decision-making, and the introduction of their new CEO to the committee.
Northern Land Council on essential services (7:02:50)
The Northern Land Council addresses the 50th anniversary of the Land Rights Act, unsafe drinking water in remote communities, and new marine protection areas.
Tiwi Land Council on cultural repatriation (7:08:52)
The Tiwi Land Council outlines strategic planning for homelands and the emotional process of repatriating ancestral remains from the South Australian Museum.
Healing centers and Bush Bus services (7:18:00)
Discussion on the success of on-country healing centers in the Anindilyakwa region and the critical impact of service cuts to the Bush Bus in Central Australia.
Remote Area Allowance and Cost of Living (7:27:26)
Discussion regarding the inadequacy of the Remote Area Allowance, which has not seen a significant increase in 25 years, and the Central Land Council's proposal for a 30% increase to meet remote living costs.
Indigenous Ranger Programs and Employment (7:31:13)
The Northern Land Council outlines the benefits of the Indigenous Ranger programs, including employment statistics, gender equity achievements, and their role in emergency response and border protection.
PM&C Portfolio Estimates Resumption (7:53:08)
The committee reconvenes for the Prime Minister and Cabinet portfolio estimates, welcoming Minister Penny Wong and Department Secretary Dr. Steven Kennedy.
Statement on Attack Against Dr. Helen Haines (7:53:24)
Minister Penny Wong delivers an opening statement addressing the violent attack on Dr. Helen Haines, calling for a reduction in political temperature and an end to violence against women.
PM&C Secretary Opening Statement (7:57:36)
Dr. Steven Kennedy expresses shock at the attack on Dr. Helen Haines and introduces the Department's submission regarding parliamentary standards and the health and safety of public servants.
Parliamentary Standards and Social Media Abuse (7:59:27)
Dr. Steven Kennedy addresses the Secretaries Board submission on behavior codes, focusing on the protection of public servants from intimidation and social media harassment.
Convention of PM&C Secretary Attendance (8:07:38)
Senator Hume questions Dr. Kennedy on the historical convention of PM&C secretaries not appearing at estimates hearings.
Approval Process for the Board Submission (8:09:29)
Discussion on how the Secretaries Board approved their submission out of session and the level of consultation with the PMO.
Coordination of Official Statements on Consent (8:13:04)
Inquiry into whether statements by Defense officials regarding consent for social media clips were coordinated by the Secretaries Board.
Social Media Clips and Public Accountability (8:15:22)
Senators debate the public interest in sharing clips of official performance versus the risk of exposing public servants to ridicule.
Defining Misleading Conduct and Respectful Relations (8:27:13)
Discussion on who determines if a clip is misleading and the importance of maintaining respectful relationships between officials and senators.
Transparency of Cabinet and NSC Operations (8:31:40)
Senator Payman questions the department on why information like Cabinet seating and NSC meeting counts is no longer disclosed.
Proposed Powers for Committee Chairs (8:38:48)
Examination of the submission's proposal to give committee chairs more power to manage senator conduct and the use of accusatory language.
Parliamentary Privilege and Committee Conduct (8:47:37)
Debate over the balance between parliamentary privilege and proposed powers for committee chairs to manage inappropriate behavior or personal attacks on officials.
National Fuel Security and Diesel Reliance (8:55:37)
Examination of Australia's reliance on diesel imports, supply chain resilience, and government programs aimed at transitioning to cleaner fuels and electrification.
MLCIP Inquiry and Secretary Attendance (8:59:52)
A brief inquiry into why Dr. Kennedy did not personally attend a specific hearing related to the MLCIP inquiry despite receiving a personal invitation.
ATO Credit Card Surcharge Ban Timeline (9:01:02)
Questioning regarding the timeline of when the Prime Minister and PM&C became aware of the ATO's decision to stop absorbing credit card surcharges.
ERC Consideration of ATO Surcharge Policy (9:06:08)
Discussion on the Expenditure Review Committee's role in reviewing the ATO's surcharge policy and the associated costings provided by Treasury.
Underwriting Diesel and Jet Fuel Imports (9:11:15)
Discussion on the financial arrangements and volumes of diesel and jet fuel secured through government underwriting to ensure supply during market shocks.
Refugee and Humanitarian Intake Policy (9:20:51)
Debate over the government's commitment to a 20,000-person humanitarian intake and whether recent statements constitute a 'captain's call' by the Prime Minister.
Budget Costings for Humanitarian Program (9:23:38)
Discussion regarding the discrepancy between PBO costings and government policy on the humanitarian intake baseline and its fiscal impact.